NonStopTuning (NST) K20 SI Kit DIY, Pics, Dynos...

[polgas07]

question about the crank pulley: it seems like the pin isn't a perfect fit with the pulley , is this normal?

[Shark Tek]

Originally Posted by xfactorwrx

keep in mind you will need Gods hand to remove the crank pulley... hahaha

Wrong you need to be smart there is a quick a safe way to do it without using an impact gun.

[blaznhot_23]

Originally Posted by Shark Tek

Wrong you need to be smart there is a quick a safe way to do it without using an impact gun.

what way are you talking about...i only know of two...either lock the flywheel up manually through the service panel on the tranny with a pry bar of some sort or put the car in 6th and hold the brakes. the bolt comes off usually with a breaker bar

[Shark Tek]

Originally Posted by Shark Tek

Use the power of the starter of the car to lose that bolt on the crank pulley. That was the only way to do it in my case.

Here is a better explanation of what I did.



Summary
Connect the socket and the breaker bar to the bolt of the crankshaft, the handle of the breaker bar must touch the lower control arm. Try to turn the ignition key to the start position just for one second or less. Making sure that the engine will not start. It really works fine.

[blaznhot_23]

^^ yeah but you may risk the chance of messing up your flywheel...

[Shark Tek]

The impact gun also is a risky way, all that vibration trying to lose that bolt could mess something inside. At least this method had worked in two FG2 and the bolt had come out at the first try.

[NewYorkJon]

If you want to buy the NST pulley kit here is a link for those who don't feel like looking for it, lol


http://www.nonstoptuning.com/pKitHonCivSi.htm

[freeride59]

I have to put in my 2 cents here, I am a test engineer in the aerospace industry and I perform vibration tests on complicated mechanisms regularly , I am also a car guy.

Yes, you can put one these underdrive pulleys from NST or UR gain a couple HP and most likely never have a problem. If you did have a crank failure you couldn't prove it was the pulleys fault anyway. The guys who sell these parts know this, so they have to BS you and tell you why the damper is unnecessary.

The fact is there are hundreds of engineers that work for Honda studying engine dynamics, performing FEA analysis on crankshafts and running engine durability tests. If they discovered that the damper was unnecessary they would remove it in a heartbeat.

The function of a harmonic damper is just that, to dampen the harmonic vibrations in the crankshaft caused by the explosions in the combustion chamber. The explosion on top of the piston is like a hammer whacking the the connecting rod , exciting the natural frequency of the crank. Using a mass damper system the harmonics are absorbed and converted into heat energy.


* By the way these vibrations have nothing to do with the rotating components being out of balance.

* the timing belt or the accessory belt cannot absorb and/or dampen the harmonics, it must be a mass damper system .

* the harmonic damper is not used to keep noise down in the engine compartment, the natural frequency of the crank is most likely audible to dogs and birds not humans.

The removal of the damper will result in a slow degredation of the crank. Most likely the car will be junked or wrecked before the crank fails.

The thing that pisses me off is the arrogant attitude that UR & NST have, they want you to believe that they are more knowledgable of engine dynamics than the hundreds of engineers at honda. The K20 engine is an engineering marvel, don't disrespect the engineers at honda, they make a killer engine.

[NewYorkJon]

Well said , see stuff like this make me second guess myself. I am not sure if I want to buy the NST Pulley now.

Any Suggestions?

[8civic]

On a relatively understressed near stock motor with bolt ons or low amounts of boost like what most of the people on this forum probably run, a solid pulley will not have any life threatening consiquences. The factory pulley with a 2mm (less than a 1/8th inch) damper is primarily there for wide band NVH (noise vibration harshness) supression from the engine and driveline. Removing the damper and replacing it with a solid pulley will lead to minor addtional NVH but will not harm the engine. In fact, most people claim their engines seem to run smoother with NST pulleys.

The engineering reasons are that most modern engines have a short, strong crank with, a relatively high natural frequency. The dangerous second harmonic that can cause damage occurs at an rpm that this sort of engine will never see, in the area above 10,000 rpm. Even the stock damper is not tuned for attinuation at this sort of rpm so the argument is somewhat of a moot point.

Now small engines that are pushing the limit with lots of revs, wimpy cranks, super long strokes, lots of boost and dwelling in the upper rpm ranges for long periods of time can benefit from a damper designed to deal with this sort of operation but our engine is not like this, and probably very few people with this motor on this forum push the envelope that hard. How many 2 Liter, 450HP, 11,000RPM motors do we have on these forums?

As far as I can tell, our engine has a strong and stiff bottom end that is well built for our intended use. It has a strong crankshaft which is less like to break due to torsional vibration.

There are a lot of Nissan guys who use underdrive crank pulleys in road racing series like NASA or SCCA. Road racing is much more punishing on an engine than other motorsports. The engine is subjected to run times lasting 20 to 45 minutes with the engine always in the upper ranges of its rpm limit. One race weekend is the equivlent of hundreds of 1/4 mile passes.

http://www.NonStopTuning.com sponsors the first ever wheel to wheel Scion tC NASA Road Race car. This car has been using underdrive pulleys from NST with great results since day one. They have also sponsored several cars participating in Fromula Drift. These cars have been using NST pulleys with no issues of any kind for the past few seasons. We could go on and on...


Is a solid crank pulley harmless to all engines? No it is not. Small, super high reving engines, when modified way past the simple bolt on stages may have problems. These engines reach critcal harmonics, past the 10,000 rpm range, an rpm often reached by certain race engines.

A mildly modded inline six will most likely be fine but one subjected to high rpm for long periods of time (90% of its life) with lots of boost will probably suffer. In this case , the stock balancer/damper is probably not adequate either.

Some of the older american V8 engines are externaly balanced and it is critical not to use a solid hub pulley not designed for these applications, or damage to the engine could result.

Our engines and most around here do not fall into the above catagories. Rest assured that your engines will not blow up and die or have a reduced life in street and even racing use with these parts.

I would bet that every "expert" that tells you otherwise has little personal, practical, real world experience with the subject.

[Tom1222]

Originally Posted by NewYorkJon

Well said , see stuff like this make me second guess myself. I am not sure if I want to buy the NST Pulley now.

Any Suggestions?

Buy the Ingalls "Stiffy" (Torque dampner) instead

Reduces wheelhop and makes the car feel more responsive. At least to me.

[Shark Tek]

Originally Posted by freeride59

........
.............
The thing that pisses me off is the arrogant attitude that UR & NST have, they want you to believe that they are more knowledgable of engine dynamics than the hundreds of engineers at honda. The K20 engine is an engineering marvel, don't disrespect the engineers at honda, they make a killer engine.

So by your statements I can conclude that a CAI, Header, Cat-back, reflash, etc are unnecessary because an Honda Engineer doesn't consider them in the original design.

I did a lot of research before buying the kit and I never found solid proof that says that the exchange of the crank pulley will decrease the life of the crank shaft specially K20 engines. Instead I only found lots of speculations and theories. Just a few guys that got a bad experience but there is also a lot of guys that never had experienced problems with this type of mod.

[freeride59]

* So what your saying is vibration from the driveline is fed back into the crank? On a manual trans car the clutch disc has torsion springs in the hub which would isolate high frequency energy from the crank.

*Second order harmonics are taken care of by the twin counter shafts operating at 2X crank speed. Also I don't think second order harmonics damage a crank, they are eliminated for the comfort of the passengers.

* Then you go on to say "most modern engines have a short, strong crank with, a relatively high natural frequency. " later on you say modern engines have wimpy cranks. Which one is it? It can't be both.

* Real road race engines are torn down at least once per season, and their cranks are magnafluxed and inspected for cracks, not very practical on a daily driver.

look we,ll keep buy your products just stop BSing us.

Oh, by the way here is a link to an artical written by Steve Dinan (he may have some credibility) the artical is posted on the ATI racing website, ATI manufacture harmonic dampers. (they may also have some credibility)



http://www.atiperformanceproducts.co...mper_dinan.htm




Good Luck on your journey on the superhighway of misinformation!!

[8civic]

There are those who actually do and learn from their experiences, then there are those who sit behind computer screens and talk a good game.

I have personally owned pulleys on several cars. Daily driven as well as track cars. None of my cars have ever had any problems as a result of aftermarket pulleys.

I will take my personal experience and what I learned by actually doing, over your internet theories any day.

I did not post to attack you, you posted to attack me. Thank you, and enjoy with your internet scientist venture. Here's to you winning the nobel prize for spreading internet horror stories.

I will not reply on this thread from here on out.

[phaktory]

Originally Posted by freeride59

*
Oh, by the way here is a link to an artical written by Steve Dinan (he may have some credibility) the artical is posted on the ATI racing website, ATI manufacture harmonic dampers. (they may also have some credibility)

An article about them on a website that makes them? Yeah umm.. can't IMAGINE why they would post that there.. That's like a doctor talking about how a penis enlargment pill works, on that pills website...

[raheel616]

hey guys,

This is actually my car, I have had the pulleys on for about 7 and a half months now and all i can say is that till this very day i think it has got to be one of the best mods. i have done so far for power.

[Forklift352]

I instaled them about 5 weeks ago.I LOVE them I couldent belive I would get
better gas milage but I do.And takeoff vastly improuved.And it maybe posible
a slow death could befall my whip.But then again an SUV driven by an unlisend driver plowing in to me is more of a posabilaty of Injen failer.

[maiku]

I haven't read all the replies in this thread but the general argument is clear. There's definitely no agreement as to if they damage or don't damage the engine, whether down the road or whatever. Engines are getting more complicated than they used to be. On my old car (1995), installing an after market pulley was the best bolt on I did. No problems ever heard of. Definite gains. Indisputable gains. The butt dyno tells it all. Whether or not it causes damage to the crank, or other aspects of the engine is beyond my understanding. Maybe one day I'll research it. Because I'd love to have one if they are 100% safe.

[NewYorkJon]

So how much of a difference will I "Feel" over stock after I put the pullies in?

Thanks for any replys

[NewYorkJon]

^^?