Front/Rear Wheel drive, 60-40 Weigt Distribution

[Ocean's SI]

I was just thinking about why Honda made the Civic and the SI 60 front 40 rear weigt distribution, while like BMW always touts how their app. 50 50 is so much better for handling and going thru the turns.

I understand that FWD all the weight is in the front, but I'm sure they could have gotten is closer than 60 40. Like the battery, some elec components, and whatever else could have went in the back...??

[tpofa-07LX]

Originally Posted by Ocean's SI

I was just thinking about why Honda made the Civic and the SI 60 front 40 rear weigt distribution, while like BMW always touts how their app. 50 50 is so much better for handling and going thru the turns.

I understand that FWD all the weight is in the front, but I'm sure they could have gotten is closer than 60 40. Like the battery, some elec components, and whatever else could have went in the back...??

Honda: Largely economy minded front wheel drive cars. Commuter cars. Cheap

BMW: "Luxury" brand, traditional RWD layout. Sold as "The Ultimate Driving Machines" Not so cheap.

Kinda like apples and oranges.

To make a front wheel drive car with 50-50 weight distribution would be an impressive feat, and probably not cheap for the consumer.

[rmfa]

Why not just buy an S2000? They are 50/50. /thread

[giftd151]

I kind of like having a little more weight up front, over the drive tires, it makes getting around in the snow that much easier.

[OrdnanceMarine]

If you threw another 600-700 lbs in the trunk you'd be right there with the BMW at 50/50 AND the same curb weight of about 3500 lbs.

Personally why does it matter? The Si outhandles the 328i all day long and they are pretty evenly matched in the power department. $2000 of simple mods to the Si's suspension and engine and you'll slaughter the BMW in every performance category.

Honda did a pretty nice job with the handling on the Si leaving me with little to complain about in stock form besides the rear sway bar.

[I Vtec, do you?]

Yeah I don't know about an SI being evenly matched with a 328i...

[MBK]

si probably beats it in a straightline bmw beats it on a roadcourse but its not like the si is bad on a roadcourse either

[OrdnanceMarine]

Originally Posted by I Vtec, do you?

Yeah I don't know about an SI being evenly matched with a 328i...

I'm behind a firewall that won't let me access a picture hosting website such as Photobucket so I just did a copy and paste from Consumer Reports online and included a .pdf. I threw the EX Sedan so you could get dimensions because the Si Consumer Reports used was a coupe. Keep in mind that Consumer Reports is generally pretty conservative in their performance numbers with a manual transmission and these numbers are with the base all-season tires:

convertible, coupe, sedan, wagon coupe, sedan coupe, sedan
Trim lines 328i, 328xi, 335i, 335xi DX, LX, EX, Si, Hybrid, GX, Mugen Si DX, LX, EX, Si, Hybrid, GX, Mugen Si
Base price range $32,400 - $49,100 $14,810 - $29,500 $14,810 - $29,500
Drive wheels Rear or AWD Front Front
Seating 2 front, 3 rear 2 front, 3 rear 2 front, 3 rear
Engines available 3.0-liter 6 (230 hp)
3.0-liter 6 twin-turbo (300 hp)
4.0-liter V8 (414 hp) 1.3-liter 4 hybrid (110 hp)
1.8-liter 4 (113 hp)
1.8-liter 4 (140 hp)
2.0-liter 4 (197 hp) 1.3-liter 4 hybrid (110 hp)
1.8-liter 4 (113 hp)
1.8-liter 4 (140 hp)
2.0-liter 4 (197 hp)
Transmissions available NA NA NA
Tested model 2008 328i sedan, 3.0-liter Six, 6-speed automatic 2006 Si coupe, 2.0-liter Four, 6-speed manual 2006 EX sedan, 1.8-liter Four, 5-speed manual
Tires as tested Bridgestone Turanza EL42, size 205/55R16 91H Michelin Pilot HX MXM4, size P215/45R17 87V Bridgestone Turanza EL400, size P205/55R16 89H

Performance
Acceleration
0 to 30 mph, sec. 2.6 2.7 3.0
0 to 60 mph, sec. 6.9 7.0 8.6
Quarter-mile, sec. 15.3 15.4 16.8
Quarter-mile, mph 95 94 85
45 to 65 mph, sec. 4.8 4.5 5.6
Transmission
RPM at 60 mph 2,100 2,655 2,630
Routine handling
Emergency handling
Avoidance maneuver, max speed 53.5 54.5 54.0
Braking
Braking from 60 mph dry, ft. 130 132 136
Braking from 60 mph wet, ft. 142 141 136

Length, in. 178 175 177
Width, in. 72 69 69
Height, in. 56 54 57
Wheelbase, in. 109 104 106
Turning circle, ft. 37 38 38
Road clearance, in. 4.0 4.5 4.5
Curb weight, lb. 3,485 2,885 2,740
Percent weight, front/rear 50 / 50 61 / 39 59 / 41
Max. load, lb. 1,060 850 850
Towing capacity, lb. NR NR 1,000

[MBK]

look like the 3 is faster

[OrdnanceMarine]

Originally Posted by MBK

look like the 3 is faster

Wow. You really think you can say that either car is faster or slower when they're 0.1 second and 1 MPH apart in the key performance parameters? Different driver/different weather/and even different time of day would make much more of a difference that that! It's statistically a dead heat with the exception of 45-65 where .3 seconds difference is probably enough to make the call for the Si in that department.

[rmfa]

Originally Posted by MBK

look like the 3 is faster

Originally Posted by OrdnanceMarine

Wow. You really think you can say that either car is faster or slower when they're 0.1 second and 1 MPH apart in the key performance parameters? Different driver/different weather/and even different time of day would make much more of a difference that that! It's statistically a dead heat with the exception of 45-65 where .3 seconds difference is probably enough to make the call for the Si in that department.

Just ignore him. This is just another magazine racer.

[OrdnanceMarine]

Originally Posted by rmfa

Just ignore him. This is just another magazine racer.

Ronnie, I think your comment was not aimed my way judging by your pretty extensive experience here but I'll address it anyway:

What other comparison do we have to make? Show me track results from drivers with similar experience driving one or the other of these cars in similar conditions and if an overwhelming number of them fall to the 328i then I'll gladly rescind my statement. Look, it's simple, the 328i and the Civic Si are pretty evenly matched cars in both a straight line AND on a road course. You won't see many 328i's at the track because the folks that intend to track their BMWs are probably more apt to buy the 335 or M so what exactly are you making your comparison with? I personally am a fan of many aspects of many BMWs (don't give a rip about their "SUVs" though) and they are a totally different breed of car than the Si but the 328i isn't exactly the pinnacle of BMW engineering, it's essentially the "Civic" of the BMW line to which the usual 328i buyer doesn't want a manual transmission and doesn't care about 300 HP or more like it's stable mates offer. Its entry level as far as BMWs are concerned, designed to deliver value to the person that wants the prestige of owning a BMW.

[cderalow]

Originally Posted by rmfa

Why not just buy an S2000? They are 50/50. /thread

then it's not FWD

Originally Posted by MBK

look like the 3 is faster

Like said above me, 0.1s is not faster. 0.1s is a difference in contact patch, driver, gas, wind, environmental testing parameter.

Real world experience (my Si v neighbor's slightly older 325 sedan), I've won out, granted v. the auto 325 but either way, won.

also said above, the 50/50 "ultimate driving machine" bmw cost close to twice what my Si did.

[PeterC.]

The BMW 328i is faster. Lets face it, displacement wins. Go out there and drive it, you'll feel the power difference. The older 325i on the other hand is slow as fock.

[PeterC.]

Originally Posted by OrdnanceMarine

Ronnie, I think your comment was not aimed my way judging by your pretty extensive experience here but I'll address it anyway:

What other comparison do we have to make? Show me track results from drivers with similar experience driving one or the other of these cars in similar conditions and if an overwhelming number of them fall to the 328i then I'll gladly rescind my statement. Look, it's simple, the 328i and the Civic Si are pretty evenly matched cars in both a straight line AND on a road course. You won't see many 328i's at the track because the folks that intend to track their BMWs are probably more apt to buy the 335 or M so what exactly are you making your comparison with? I personally am a fan of many aspects of many BMWs (don't give a rip about their "SUVs" though) and they are a totally different breed of car than the Si but the 328i isn't exactly the pinnacle of BMW engineering, it's essentially the "Civic" of the BMW line to which the usual 328i buyer doesn't want a manual transmission and doesn't care about 300 HP or more like it's stable mates offer. Its entry level as far as BMWs are concerned, designed to deliver value to the person that wants the prestige of owning a BMW.

You can't say it's the "civic" equivalent in their line up because they have the 318( a four banger!) so there is a market out there for these kinds of cars: the people that don't want to GO FAST or don't want to deal with the extra fuel cost and possible turbo failure. I would definitely get the 328i, but I wouldn't be street racing either. Enough power, BMW handling and sophistication while still being reasonable on gas.

[cderalow]

Originally Posted by PeterC.

The BMW 328i is faster. Lets face it, displacement wins. Go out there and drive it, you'll feel the power difference. The older 325i on the other hand is slow as fock.

having more torque does not equal faster.

my CR-V "feels" faster. is it actually faster than my Si? no.

point of fact. imperical test data does not lie. the human body is not an accurate measuring tool of acceleration, speed or force.

[PeterC.]

Really? I think the CR-V is pretty slow. Well I'm sticking to my story. On the track, I'd put my money on the 328i.

[OrdnanceMarine]

I didn't want to bring the butt dyno into the equation but my good friend and neighbor (best man in my wedding) leased a 6sp MT 328i and I spent some time driving it and my Si "feels" faster. By the way, he got rid of the BMW and just bought a FA5 and has left it in totally stock form and he says it "feels" faster as well.

Not that it matters but guess which Navi he likes better too?

[nayilsi]

Originally Posted by PeterC.

The BMW 328i is faster. Lets face it, displacement wins. Go out there and drive it, you'll feel the power difference. The older 325i on the other hand is slow as fock.

2008 BMW 328i Road Test Review on Edmunds.com

edmunds got a 14.6

and 15.1 with the Si

[ray]

Originally Posted by Ocean's SI

I was just thinking about why Honda made the Civic and the SI 60 front 40 rear weigt distribution, while like BMW always touts how their app. 50 50 is so much better for handling and going thru the turns.

I understand that FWD all the weight is in the front, but I'm sure they could have gotten is closer than 60 40. Like the battery, some elec components, and whatever else could have went in the back...??

Back to the actual topic...

60/40 is actually a good weight distribution for a fwd car. Most have more than 60% on the front wheels, as much as 65%. Honda could only do a couple of percent better, but it would result in a substantially more expensive and less practical car than a civic.

50/50--um yeah, ever see a fwd BMW? 50/50 just isn't goind to happen with fwd. Physical reality. And actually 45/55 is better for when you are really after performance and have some power to hook up, but you will be using a larger wheel/tire package in the rear (think race car). Many BMWs use larger wheels/tires in the rear even at the 50/50 level, but look at the porportions of the front vs. rear wheels on something like a F1 car to visualize what you'd actually prefer. In the end the exact F/R balance you desire will depend on the design of the car, the power level you are talking about, and the sort of circuit that you wish to optimize for.