Noobie question that's already been asked

[vage]

I know this has already pretty much been beaten to death, but all the threads about driving a manual transmission are so large that searching through them trying to find exactly what I am looking for is tough.

Basically, I just got my new Si a week ago and have been teaching myself how to drive manual. I think I am doing pretty damn well, I can take off on steep hills from a complete stop without rolling into the car behind me. One thing that I haven't attempted yet, is downshifting. I'm not completely comfortable with myself being able to tell if I am harming my clutch or transmission, so for the mean time I just throw it in neutral and brake.

My real question is about low RPM turning and parking lots. Basically, this is what I have been doing and I want to know if its the correct procedure or not. Lets say I am coming up to a stop sign with no one around, I just clutch in, put it in 2nd, brake for a rolling stop, then slowly let out the clutch and give it some gas while in 2nd. That's perfectly acceptable right? Well what about if I am in a parking lot and don't want to go more than 10 MPH? Sometimes I find that I have to "feather" the clutch to keep from stalling because I am going so slow. Is there a better way to go about this?

[millenix]

My method for downshifting isn't perfect, as I have never mastered double clutching downshifts. What I currently do on most downshifts is shift to the lower gear, then blip the throttle to aprox. the RPM range of the gear I am shifting to. Then release the clutch. You will get the feel for this as you drive.

Double clutching (someone correct me if I state this wrong) is a matter of putting the car in neutral, release the clutch... blip the throttle as stated before, then clutch in -> shift -> clutch out.

Parking lot cruising under 10 mph, why would you be in 2nd gear? in 1st while driving in a parking lot you shouldn't need to engage the clutch unless slowing way down or stopping. The throttle is of course a lot more touchy in 1st, but if you are soft with it you should be fine.

I give you props for asking questions, because even though this has been discussed it can be hard to find answers for specifically what you are having problems with.

[vage]

See I've pretty much been using 1st strictly for taking off from a complete stop, even if I am at like 8 MPH, as long as I have some kind of forward momentum I have been in 2nd gear because I find that especially in my parking lot, if I am in 1st I am revving my engine way too hard.

I know the procedure for double clutch downshifting and all, and I've read through a TON of the posts on here about how to do it, if its really necessary unless your dropping like 3 or 4 gears, etc. I'm not going to really try doing it until I feel like I can do everything else in my sleep. One step at a time.

[breakd0wn88]

I also use the "rev-match" technique millenix uses. It takes a while to get used to, but you end up putting less stress on your clutch then just downshifting by dumping the clutch. You'll know if your doing right if the transition is nice and smooth. I wouldn't concern yourself with double clutching

[MAS33820]

in second gear the car will keep u moving at 6mph without any gas and 4mph in 1st gear so u dont have to feather the clutch..only hit the clutch at those low speed when downshifting or comin to a complete stop

[They Call Me TK]

+1 on trying to learn to downshift!! not only is it a good way to save brakes, but it is also an excellent way to break in your engine and clutch. i don't think you need to double clutch, that, in my opinion, is overkill. Good Luck!!

[vage]

Well thank you all for the clarification, I had been putting off attempting to downshift because I didn't think I was ready to attempt a double clutch rev-match. Today on the drive home however I will try downshifting with simply rev-matching while the clutch is engaged.

So in a parking lot I should only use the clutch basically when I am coming into a parking spot and need to stop? That is very useful information. I could probably answer a lot of these questions simply by trying it myself, but I just don't think I'm experienced enough to know if I am harming my engine, transmission, or clutch.

[They Call Me TK]

you don't need to rev match anything. just put the clutch in, downshift and push the clutch out. its that easy. just a note, when you down shift and your pushing it into gear be more gentle than up shifting. eventually the car will tell you when its okay to put it into gear. i'm not saying barely push it, just be a little more gentle then when your up shifting and the car will let it into gear.

[Phalanx]

Originally Posted by They Call Me TK

you don't need to rev match anything. just put the clutch in, downshift and push the clutch out. its that easy.

except for the fact that when you do this... your RPMs will jump up and you'll lurch and feel like your engine wants to fly away

rev-matching =

[vage]

Originally Posted by They Call Me TK

you don't need to rev match anything. just put the clutch in, downshift and push the clutch out. its that easy. just a note, when you down shift and your pushing it into gear be more gentle than up shifting. eventually the car will tell you when its okay to put it into gear. i'm not saying barely push it, just be a little more gentle then when your up shifting and the car will let it into gear.

If I attempt it this way, should I let out the clutch VERY slowly, or just like I normally would if I were upshifting? I would assume slowly, but that seems like it would be a lot of unnecessary pressure on the clutch.

[They Call Me TK]

Originally Posted by Phalanx

except for the fact that when you do this... your RPMs will jump up and you'll lurch and feel like your engine wants to fly away

rev-matching =

the only reason that happens is because your keeping your foot on the gas after you disengage the clutch, try letting your foot off the gas b4 you push the clutch in, i've been driving like this for 9 years and never had a problem. i do use rev-matching in racing applications though when the syncros are spinning extremely fast, but in normal daily driving i really don't find it necessary.

EDIT: i now understand what you are saying and yes you are right the car will jerk if you dump the clutch. if you let it out nice and slow the transition is almost seemless, no jerking.

[They Call Me TK]

Originally Posted by vage

If I attempt it this way, should I let out the clutch VERY slowly, or just like I normally would if I were upshifting? I would assume slowly, but that seems like it would be a lot of unnecessary pressure on the clutch.

yes, you do want to let it out slower. if you let it out fast the car will jerk pretty violently to match the revs... sounds like you got it!!!

[Phalanx]

Originally Posted by They Call Me TK

EDIT: i now understand what you are saying and yes you are right the car will jerk if you dump the clutch. if you let it out nice and slow the transition is almost seemless, no jerking.

Originally Posted by They Call Me TK

yes, you do want to let it out slower. if you let it out fast the car will jerk pretty violently to match the revs... sounds like you got it!!!

thats exactly what i was talking about

[FijiBlueGator]

Originally Posted by They Call Me TK

you don't need to rev match anything. just put the clutch in, downshift and push the clutch out. its that easy. just a note, when you down shift and your pushing it into gear be more gentle than up shifting. eventually the car will tell you when its okay to put it into gear. i'm not saying barely push it, just be a little more gentle then when your up shifting and the car will let it into gear.

My dad downshifts like this. I find it harder than rev matching. No matter what i do i always get a small jump. I hate when my dad drives cause i always get jealous when he downshifts into first, to show off, and its perfectly smooth.

Ive been working on rev matching lately, and wanted to know, does it harm the engine at all when the clutch is in and we rev our engines up? and also is it better to push the clutch in all the way to shift (to where its almost touching the floor), or just to when it first engages?

[They Call Me TK]

Originally Posted by FijiBlueGator

My dad downshifts like this. I find it harder than rev matching. No matter what i do i always get a small jump. I hate when my dad drives cause i always get jealous when he downshifts into first, to show off, and its perfectly smooth.

Ive been working on rev matching lately, and wanted to know, does it harm the engine at all when the clutch is in and we rev our engines up? and also is it better to push the clutch in all the way to shift (to where its almost touching the floor), or just to when it first engages?

to answer your questions, no it doesn't hurt the engine. it's actually better because their is no load on it at all and it's free revving. and yes, it is always the best for your clutch and transmission to always depress the clutch pedal to the floor every time you use it, otherwise you may develop drive train problems. i've also seen a lot of people keep their foot on the clutch while they are driving, this is also bad, you may be depressing the clutch slightly and this will cause a lot of clutch burning, adversely affecting clutch life. their is a reason honda provided a dead pedal.

[breakd0wn88]

I would always rev-match my downshifts, but thats just me. You are increasing clutch ware by dumping the clutch, BUT like I said its all up to you and how you drive.

I also would suggest putting the clutch all the way to the floor to shift, this way you can be certain that the clutch is completely disengaged. Some people develop a bad habit of slipping their clutch while shifting because they only clutch in half-way.

[KyleBucket]

Originally Posted by Phalanx

except for the fact that when you do this... your RPMs will jump up and you'll lurch and feel like your engine wants to fly away

rev-matching =

Thank you Phalan. Also, rev-matching helps your tranny.

[knowledge_6]

i myself learned and taught myself when i got the Si...

i stop two ways...

1) just simply clutch in put into 2nd/3rd and come to stop using brakes.. (i dunno if this is good for the clutch to keep it in all the time, but i got mixed answers for that)

2) I now rev match (yay) it took about a month of driving to try it once or twice coming off the highway... i started off going into every gear, sor 6th, 5th, 4th, 3rd... but now i started skipping gears...

rev matching is not only effective but it sounds cool ; > usually u want to blip ur throttle till it's about 1K rpm higher then where u are currently at.. this is to go only one gear down.. to skip gears obviously u blip more ; >

[b854th]

I've been driving sticks for close to 20 years and never rev-matched or double clutched....on a car at least. On trucks, it's a totally different ballgame. You have to rev-match and double clutch. And that includes upshifting. Although, I haven't driven a truck in 13 years, so that's probably changed too. I've yet to burn any clutches. I'll have to try that.

[They Call Me TK]

Originally Posted by KyleBucket

Thank you Phalan. Also, rev-matching helps your tranny.

How does it "help" you tranny? Nothing you do to your car helps it, even the act of starting it up hurts your car (systematically breaking down piston rings and sleeves because the oil is not warm yet... over a very extended amount of time). Simply put, down shifting and rev-matching have the same end result. One is just a lot easier than the other. One doesn't hurt the tranny more than the other, unless performed incorrectly.

I'm kinda new to these parts (but certainly not around car and driving) but I have to put in my $.02 as I get more annoyed reading some of these posts about "driving and shifting."

First off, if any of you "double clutch" on anything other than 2-1 than you need to slap yourself. On a modern day synchros equipped car, double clutching is like pulling the choke on a carburetor; you don't need to. Would it help the tranny? Maybe, but that's stretching it damn thin, ok I'll admit maybe it'll add 100 miles on top of 100k miles on a tranny, not enough to matter IMO. The last time I double clutched was in a deuce and a half with a 5 speed transmission. So unless your driving a big rig or some pre-1960's car you shouldn't be double clutching. Even when your synchros are working to hell double clutching is rarely needed, it's only absolutely necessary when you know you basically torn out the synchros, otherwise it's POINTLESS.

OK so now that I've gotten rid of my severe annoyance at some of the "driving techniques" around here I'm gonna add some more into the rev match question.

The point of rev matching/heel and toe is to be able to shift at the absolute last minute. Not too many people have mentioned why you would want to in competition or real world driving so I will try my best to explain. I will take a scenario I encounter on a daily basis to explain it better.

Your going through a blind right hand sweeper in 4th gear; as you approach a sharp left turn you down shift to 3rd. In 3rd you use the engine power to slow the car down along with the brakes. You want to engage 3rd gear ASAP before actual braking occurs. You generally want to brake in 3rd as long as possible before getting into 2nd. As you apply the brakes near the end of the right hand sweeper and approaching the entrance of the left hander you need to blip the throttle. Reason being that the 3-2 shift multiplies the torque much more than any other shift from higher gears so it will shock the car and upset the balance. Which is the reason behind heel and toe (rev matching) as you don't want to upset the car balance due to the increased torque strain on the car. As you blip the throttle (usually 2k more than your current rev) you than clutch in and down shift into 2nd and than clutch out (note that this is a single clutch movement, not a "double clutch.") As you engage 2nd you want to slightly trail the brake by moving off the brake pedal and slowly onto the accelerator (slow as in .2 versus .1 seconds.) When you shift into 2nd you momentarily lifted the torque strain and shifted weight to the front but as you reapply the throttle the weight shift to the rear causing mild understeer. But if you trail the brakes it will cause the weight of the car to shift slightly to the front, smoothing out the coming up left turn. As you come onto the throttle you than start to turn the wheel and make your sharp left hander. That is the process (and reasons) why you should heel toe to go into a corner, it will make you a lot faster.

This is the only time you really need to use rev-matching, all other times regular downshifting is easier and more practical.