CVT trouble?

bubbagump · 05-07-2008, 03:08 AM

I just picked up a 2008 Civic Hybrid and at around 250 miles I was driving with my wife and toddler at around 60 MPH when the car started to buck lightly, as though the engine were cutting out or the transmission was slipping. Then I stopped at a light, and as I left the light under moderate acceleration the car bucked pretty badly. Then it went back to normal. It hasn't happened again since then and it's been over a week, although sometimes upon accelerating from a stop I seem to feel a light pulsation or hesitation for a couple of seconds before it smooths out. It probably wouldn't be noticeable to most people but now I'm paying close attention to every little thing. I'm not sure if this is a quirk caused by the IMA (almost as if the electric motor is fighting with the gas engine rather than smoothly assisting) or if I have an issue with the CVT. I don't think it's fuel or engine related just from my own experience with cars. Has anyone heard of this before? I plan on taking it to the dealer to have them check it, but my gut tells me they will find nothing wrong. I did find some articles online pointing to CVT judder caused by bad internal belts, but that seems to be isolated to the previous generation of Civic hybrids.

spinner · 05-07-2008, 06:41 AM

Would you say that this bucking at 60 MPH was severe? There is a relatively gentle load change with cylinder management, sometimes easy to spot with the real-time fuel efficiency gauge.

There is a pulsing that you can get at around 6 MPH on a flat road with a light touch of the accelerator, say if you're rolling to keep up with slow-moving traffic. That is normal, as far as I know. Bucking at higher speeds is not.

The transmission is clutched because there is no torque converter for the CVT. That could be contributing to your situation. But it might be a break-in period thing too. If the green dot beside "D" in the selector indicator starts flashing, then you definitely have a problem.

bubbagump · 05-07-2008, 08:28 AM

I wouldn't say it was severe, but it certainly didn't feel normal, as we hadn't experienced anything like it in the first 250 miles and haven't again since. It felt a bit like a standard feels when you put it in a gear too high and try to get going from a slow start. That's why I think it's transmission related. It could certainly be a slipping clutch plate if the CVT has one. My wife and I both love the car and that's why we're waiting to see if it was just a fluke due to break-in. I guess we should call the dealer or bring it in just to get the problem on record. I just don't want to get stuck with a lemon or have the dealer start ripping the car apart and putting it back together without actually finding any problem. I'd rather live with the problem until the 09s come out and trade it in!

volvo9 · 05-07-2008, 09:41 AM

Hopefully it was a fluke. If it felt like when you are lugging the engine in a manual then maybe it was misfiring for some reason? Did you happen to catch a peek at the tach and see how fast the engine was turning?

In my last car I was on the highway when it started misfiring and losing power around 25k miles. I stomped on the gas and the engine revved up and the car just maintained speed. I started to pull over and it cleared up, so I kept driving. I traded the car in at 40k miles and it had only happened that one time.

bubbagump · 05-07-2008, 10:38 AM

That's what I'm hoping . . that it was just a fluke caused by break-in, but occasionally it does have a similar pulsing issue that happens upon initial acceleration, as spinner mentioned. Hopefully this is just normal for the car. I guess time will tell. If anyone has more info I'd be happy to hear it.

Osager · 05-07-2008, 04:16 PM

Reply to initial post - I have felt exactly what you described. Exactly. I could not describe it any better than you did. To me, it felt like I was driving a manual and not doing a perfect job. It happened at about the same mileage, under similar circumstances. It only happened like three times in all.

It has not happened in the last 2000 miles. I suspect it's nothing to worry about but please let us know what the mechanic thinks.

Good luck.

azcx hatch · 05-07-2008, 05:51 PM

same here, I have about 7K on mine, and I have felt it at least 5-6 times or more. I just let off the gas pedal, and it goes away.....not as much lately, but definetly has happened in the past.

bubbagump · 05-07-2008, 06:14 PM

So there are at least two others experiencing the same issue . . I guess that makes me feel a little better. Do you guys think it's a problem that will continue and develop into something worse? . . or maybe it's just a quirk and lots of other people experience it but don't seem to care. I know for sure that many people are not in tune to things like this, they push the pedal and as long as the car goes they don't even notice any feedback from the drivetrain. I'm still not sure if I should bring it to the dealer and have them check it (it's got less than 500 miles) to at least get it on record, or just keep on driving and hope for the best. I wish we could hear from someone who has seen a mechanic about this problem.

**Tim** · 05-07-2008, 09:09 PM

If you can figure out how to repeat the problem, take your service tech/manager for a drive at the dealership. Get a history going with the dealership for repairs.

bubbagump · 05-07-2008, 09:21 PM

If I could repeat the problem I would have been at the dealer in a heartbeat. That's the problem - it's intermittent. Worst kind of problem . . you bring it to the dealer and wait two hours for them to say "everything checks out ok" after they plug it into the code reader and see no codes then test drive it and the problem doesn't occur. Part of me wants it to start happening regularly so I can actually have it diagnosed and fixed, but on the other hand if it's just a quirky break-in issue then so be it.

bubbagump · 05-09-2008, 02:14 PM

FYI: interesting article on CVTs reveals the following:

CVTs without a torque converter are typically driven through a dual mass flywheel or a torsional damper plate that connects the crankshaft to the input shaft. The BMW Mini Cooper VT1F, the Audi A6/8 01J and Honda Civic (photo 3) CVTs are examples of this design. To prevent a stalling condition when the transmission is placed in gear or when it comes to a stop in gear, a clutch inside the transmission must release. The VT1F and 01J CVTs release the forward or reverse clutch, while the Honda Civic CVT releases a start clutch in both Drive and Reverse. These clutches are pulsed on and off very frequently and are susceptible to failure. This can cause a variety of complaints, such as chatter on takeoff, sudden slipping or neutralizing conditions, unusual idle fluctuations or a loss of hill-hold function.

Here's the link to the article:

MOTOR Magazine Article | MOTOR Information Systems

spinner · 05-09-2008, 10:19 PM

Good stuff! I was wondering how the clutching might be executed on the hybrid, but to be honest I assumed that it was more of an instant-on with the way it sometimes bumps forward after releasing the brake from an auto stop. Actually, if I'm stopped in drive while the engine remains on I can feel an impulse like it wants to push forward. After some time, say 15 seconds, it seems to relent as if the transmission has chosen to go idle.

elmerfudd94 · 06-14-2008, 11:09 PM

another possibility is that the egr valve itself is opened just a little when it is not supposed to be. that can cause the same type of jerking.

civic4me2 · 06-21-2008, 09:24 PM

Ya, it happens with me too, i picked up my 08 about nov07. Same problem, happened 5-6 times already. One time it was so bad that i had to pull over on the highway. Cause it would not even go over 60mph

The solution that i found is that if i pull over and turn of the car and turn it back on it's fine. So i'm guessing that it has something to do with the computer.

Took mine in to the dealer, of course they can't replicate it but they did find an update for the PCM (car computer). it's been a month now and nothing yet. If it ever happen again i'm going to get rid of the hybrid and get the accord.

Oh, btw, i have 13k on my car now, so it's not a break in issue

bubbagump · 06-24-2008, 03:03 PM

Well . . just an update . . it has happenend maybe once or twice since then but not to the extent that it did the first time. It certainly has not caused a dangerous situation, at least in my opinion. By letting up on the gas the hesitation/bucking goes away each time. I can see that the computer may have some impact on this issue, that is IF the computer has any control over the start clutch in the transmission. I don't think this is an EGR issue, at least in my car. It's definitely not an engine hesitation. We're still very happy with our Civic hybrid and unless this problem starts occuring more frequently or more severely, we'll continue to enjoy the 40+ mpg we've been enjoying. We own an 08 Accord as well, but the mpg is only about 25 on average . . . although I have to admit the Accord is luxurios and handles really well in comparison to the hybrid. Thanks to everyone for their feedback.

FrustratedCivicOwner · 06-25-2008, 07:31 PM

I have been experiencing the exact same problem ever since purchasing my 08 Civic Hybrid in December. From a stopped position it happens most, however it will also buck/shudder over 40 mph occasionally as well. You end up letting off the gas because it gets worse/more violent the longer you leave your foot on the accelerator

Of course the dealer found nothing using their diagnostic tools, and of course it behaved just fine when they test drove it. I think they would need to drive ~100 miles before it would replicate.

after reading up on this for a couple days, I havent found anything regarding this behavior in the '08 models besides this thread, but there is a lot regarding earlier models. Honda to some extent recognized a problem because they extended the warranty on the transmission for these earlier civics, but the folks experiencing this problem report that the dealerships were simply flushing out the transmission fluid, and that it was only buying a few thousand miles.

It would appear that this is an unresolved defect with the CVT transmission. I called my dealer to tell them this was still going on and the service dept is going to look for any technical bulletins regarding this problem.

bubbagump · 06-26-2008, 02:02 PM

Let us know if the dealership gets back to you with any useful information. I have also scoured the web for info on this issue and I can't find anything pertaining to the second generation Civic Hybrid. No service bulletins at least. If you look further up in the post you'll see an excerpt regarding CVT transmissions that I found (and a direct reference to our CVT transmission) which points to the start clutch being the potential cause of our troubles. In the first generation Civic hybrids they had issues with the EGR valve and the CVT belt (for which they would flush the fluid and burnish the belt) . . sounds to me like a band-aid on a more severe problem. I think I've been lucky that the problem, at least so far, has been mild with my Civic. If it gets worse I may just trade the car in next year towards a new hybrid so I can avoid all the dealership service department BS.

fsabbagh · 07-16-2008, 09:22 AM

Hi,

I just bought my hybrid 12 days ago. I've noticed in slow moving traffic, the car kicks as I accelerate (like a transmission slippage) from a deceleration. I assume that is what everyone means by pulsing. I also noticed in the midst of an acceleration, I occasionally feel a hiccup in the acceleration as if no fuel is going to the engine. This is very concerning for a new 2008.

Has anyone else had these issues? Is your pulsing similar to my experience?

Thanks!

bubbagump · 07-16-2008, 11:30 AM

This does not sound like the issue we are having, at least to me. I have read that in heavy traffic the transmission sometimes kicks . . I think it's due to the fact that the auto-stop feature takes a split second to bring the engine back on when you lift off the brake . . then occasionally there's a little engine surge before the transmission engages. I don't think that's anything to worry about, especially if it only happens in slow moving bumper-to-bumper traffic situations. The hesitiation sounds odd, though. That may be the same issue we're having, only we feel it more like a pulsing or bucking. I have to say that I'm sill very happy with our hybrid even though it has a few quirks. The situation has not gotten any worse and the problem happens very rarely.

05-07-2008, 03:08 AM	#1 (permalink)
bubbagump Junior Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 9 iTrader: 0 / 0%	CVT trouble? I just picked up a 2008 Civic Hybrid and at around 250 miles I was driving with my wife and toddler at around 60 MPH when the car started to buck lightly, as though the engine were cutting out or the transmission was slipping. Then I stopped at a light, and as I left the light under moderate acceleration the car bucked pretty badly. Then it went back to normal. It hasn't happened again since then and it's been over a week, although sometimes upon accelerating from a stop I seem to feel a light pulsation or hesitation for a couple of seconds before it smooths out. It probably wouldn't be noticeable to most people but now I'm paying close attention to every little thing. I'm not sure if this is a quirk caused by the IMA (almost as if the electric motor is fighting with the gas engine rather than smoothly assisting) or if I have an issue with the CVT. I don't think it's fuel or engine related just from my own experience with cars. Has anyone heard of this before? I plan on taking it to the dealer to have them check it, but my gut tells me they will find nothing wrong. I did find some articles online pointing to CVT judder caused by bad internal belts, but that seems to be isolated to the previous generation of Civic hybrids.

06-21-2008, 09:24 PM	#14 (permalink)
civic4me2 Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2 iTrader: 0 / 0%	Ya, it happens with me too, i picked up my 08 about nov07. Same problem, happened 5-6 times already. One time it was so bad that i had to pull over on the highway. Cause it would not even go over 60mph The solution that i found is that if i pull over and turn of the car and turn it back on it's fine. So i'm guessing that it has something to do with the computer. Took mine in to the dealer, of course they can't replicate it but they did find an update for the PCM (car computer). it's been a month now and nothing yet. If it ever happen again i'm going to get rid of the hybrid and get the accord. Oh, btw, i have 13k on my car now, so it's not a break in issue Last edited by civic4me2; 06-21-2008 at 09:27 PM. Reason: adding

06-25-2008, 07:31 PM	#16 (permalink)
FrustratedCivicOwner Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 1 iTrader: 0 / 0%	EXACT issue I have been experiencing the exact same problem ever since purchasing my 08 Civic Hybrid in December. From a stopped position it happens most, however it will also buck/shudder over 40 mph occasionally as well. You end up letting off the gas because it gets worse/more violent the longer you leave your foot on the accelerator Of course the dealer found nothing using their diagnostic tools, and of course it behaved just fine when they test drove it. I think they would need to drive ~100 miles before it would replicate. after reading up on this for a couple days, I havent found anything regarding this behavior in the '08 models besides this thread, but there is a lot regarding earlier models. Honda to some extent recognized a problem because they extended the warranty on the transmission for these earlier civics, but the folks experiencing this problem report that the dealerships were simply flushing out the transmission fluid, and that it was only buying a few thousand miles. It would appear that this is an unresolved defect with the CVT transmission. I called my dealer to tell them this was still going on and the service dept is going to look for any technical bulletins regarding this problem. Last edited by FrustratedCivicOwner; 06-25-2008 at 09:11 PM.

07-16-2008, 09:22 AM	#18 (permalink)
fsabbagh Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 4 iTrader: 0 / 0%	2008 Civic Hybrid Hi, I just bought my hybrid 12 days ago. I've noticed in slow moving traffic, the car kicks as I accelerate (like a transmission slippage) from a deceleration. I assume that is what everyone means by pulsing. I also noticed in the midst of an acceleration, I occasionally feel a hiccup in the acceleration as if no fuel is going to the engine. This is very concerning for a new 2008. Has anyone else had these issues? Is your pulsing similar to my experience? Thanks!

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05-07-2008, 06:41 AM	#2 (permalink)
spinner Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Toronto, ON, Canada Posts: 72 iTrader: 0 / 0%	Would you say that this bucking at 60 MPH was severe? There is a relatively gentle load change with cylinder management, sometimes easy to spot with the real-time fuel efficiency gauge. There is a pulsing that you can get at around 6 MPH on a flat road with a light touch of the accelerator, say if you're rolling to keep up with slow-moving traffic. That is normal, as far as I know. Bucking at higher speeds is not. The transmission is clutched because there is no torque converter for the CVT. That could be contributing to your situation. But it might be a break-in period thing too. If the green dot beside "D" in the selector indicator starts flashing, then you definitely have a problem.

05-07-2008, 08:28 AM	#3 (permalink)
bubbagump Junior Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 9 iTrader: 0 / 0%	I wouldn't say it was severe, but it certainly didn't feel normal, as we hadn't experienced anything like it in the first 250 miles and haven't again since. It felt a bit like a standard feels when you put it in a gear too high and try to get going from a slow start. That's why I think it's transmission related. It could certainly be a slipping clutch plate if the CVT has one. My wife and I both love the car and that's why we're waiting to see if it was just a fluke due to break-in. I guess we should call the dealer or bring it in just to get the problem on record. I just don't want to get stuck with a lemon or have the dealer start ripping the car apart and putting it back together without actually finding any problem. I'd rather live with the problem until the 09s come out and trade it in!

05-07-2008, 09:41 AM	#4 (permalink)
volvo9 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: North Attleboro, MA Age: 25 Posts: 1,684 Andrew iTrader: 0 / 0%	Hopefully it was a fluke. If it felt like when you are lugging the engine in a manual then maybe it was misfiring for some reason? Did you happen to catch a peek at the tach and see how fast the engine was turning? In my last car I was on the highway when it started misfiring and losing power around 25k miles. I stomped on the gas and the engine revved up and the car just maintained speed. I started to pull over and it cleared up, so I kept driving. I traded the car in at 40k miles and it had only happened that one time.

05-07-2008, 10:38 AM	#5 (permalink)
bubbagump Junior Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 9 iTrader: 0 / 0%	That's what I'm hoping . . that it was just a fluke caused by break-in, but occasionally it does have a similar pulsing issue that happens upon initial acceleration, as spinner mentioned. Hopefully this is just normal for the car. I guess time will tell. If anyone has more info I'd be happy to hear it.

05-07-2008, 04:16 PM	#6 (permalink)
Osager Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 18 iTrader: 0 / 0%	Reply to initial post - I have felt exactly what you described. Exactly. I could not describe it any better than you did. To me, it felt like I was driving a manual and not doing a perfect job. It happened at about the same mileage, under similar circumstances. It only happened like three times in all. It has not happened in the last 2000 miles. I suspect it's nothing to worry about but please let us know what the mechanic thinks. Good luck.

05-07-2008, 05:51 PM	#7 (permalink)
azcx hatch Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 36 iTrader: 1 / 100%	same here, I have about 7K on mine, and I have felt it at least 5-6 times or more. I just let off the gas pedal, and it goes away.....not as much lately, but definetly has happened in the past.

05-07-2008, 06:14 PM	#8 (permalink)
bubbagump Junior Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 9 iTrader: 0 / 0%	So there are at least two others experiencing the same issue . . I guess that makes me feel a little better. Do you guys think it's a problem that will continue and develop into something worse? . . or maybe it's just a quirk and lots of other people experience it but don't seem to care. I know for sure that many people are not in tune to things like this, they push the pedal and as long as the car goes they don't even notice any feedback from the drivetrain. I'm still not sure if I should bring it to the dealer and have them check it (it's got less than 500 miles) to at least get it on record, or just keep on driving and hope for the best. I wish we could hear from someone who has seen a mechanic about this problem.

05-07-2008, 09:09 PM	#9 (permalink)
Tim non-Cilantrist Join Date: Mar 2006 Age: 29 Posts: 4,812 iTrader: 10 / 100%	If you can figure out how to repeat the problem, take your service tech/manager for a drive at the dealership. Get a history going with the dealership for repairs.

05-07-2008, 09:21 PM	#10 (permalink)
bubbagump Junior Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 9 iTrader: 0 / 0%	If I could repeat the problem I would have been at the dealer in a heartbeat. That's the problem - it's intermittent. Worst kind of problem . . you bring it to the dealer and wait two hours for them to say "everything checks out ok" after they plug it into the code reader and see no codes then test drive it and the problem doesn't occur. Part of me wants it to start happening regularly so I can actually have it diagnosed and fixed, but on the other hand if it's just a quirky break-in issue then so be it.

05-09-2008, 02:14 PM	#11 (permalink)
bubbagump Junior Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 9 iTrader: 0 / 0%	FYI: interesting article on CVTs reveals the following: CVTs without a torque converter are typically driven through a dual mass flywheel or a torsional damper plate that connects the crankshaft to the input shaft. The BMW Mini Cooper VT1F, the Audi A6/8 01J and Honda Civic (photo 3) CVTs are examples of this design. To prevent a stalling condition when the transmission is placed in gear or when it comes to a stop in gear, a clutch inside the transmission must release. The VT1F and 01J CVTs release the forward or reverse clutch, while the Honda Civic CVT releases a start clutch in both Drive and Reverse. These clutches are pulsed on and off very frequently and are susceptible to failure. This can cause a variety of complaints, such as chatter on takeoff, sudden slipping or neutralizing conditions, unusual idle fluctuations or a loss of hill-hold function. Here's the link to the article: MOTOR Magazine Article \| MOTOR Information Systems

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05-09-2008, 10:19 PM	#12 (permalink)
spinner Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Toronto, ON, Canada Posts: 72 iTrader: 0 / 0%	Good stuff! I was wondering how the clutching might be executed on the hybrid, but to be honest I assumed that it was more of an instant-on with the way it sometimes bumps forward after releasing the brake from an auto stop. Actually, if I'm stopped in drive while the engine remains on I can feel an impulse like it wants to push forward. After some time, say 15 seconds, it seems to relent as if the transmission has chosen to go idle.

06-14-2008, 11:09 PM	#13 (permalink)
elmerfudd94 Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 3 iTrader: 0 / 0%	another possibility is that the egr valve itself is opened just a little when it is not supposed to be. that can cause the same type of jerking.

06-24-2008, 03:03 PM	#15 (permalink)
bubbagump Junior Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 9 iTrader: 0 / 0%	Well . . just an update . . it has happenend maybe once or twice since then but not to the extent that it did the first time. It certainly has not caused a dangerous situation, at least in my opinion. By letting up on the gas the hesitation/bucking goes away each time. I can see that the computer may have some impact on this issue, that is IF the computer has any control over the start clutch in the transmission. I don't think this is an EGR issue, at least in my car. It's definitely not an engine hesitation. We're still very happy with our Civic hybrid and unless this problem starts occuring more frequently or more severely, we'll continue to enjoy the 40+ mpg we've been enjoying. We own an 08 Accord as well, but the mpg is only about 25 on average . . . although I have to admit the Accord is luxurios and handles really well in comparison to the hybrid. Thanks to everyone for their feedback.

06-26-2008, 02:02 PM	#17 (permalink)
bubbagump Junior Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 9 iTrader: 0 / 0%	Let us know if the dealership gets back to you with any useful information. I have also scoured the web for info on this issue and I can't find anything pertaining to the second generation Civic Hybrid. No service bulletins at least. If you look further up in the post you'll see an excerpt regarding CVT transmissions that I found (and a direct reference to our CVT transmission) which points to the start clutch being the potential cause of our troubles. In the first generation Civic hybrids they had issues with the EGR valve and the CVT belt (for which they would flush the fluid and burnish the belt) . . sounds to me like a band-aid on a more severe problem. I think I've been lucky that the problem, at least so far, has been mild with my Civic. If it gets worse I may just trade the car in next year towards a new hybrid so I can avoid all the dealership service department BS.

07-16-2008, 11:30 AM	#19 (permalink)
bubbagump Junior Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 9 iTrader: 0 / 0%	This does not sound like the issue we are having, at least to me. I have read that in heavy traffic the transmission sometimes kicks . . I think it's due to the fact that the auto-stop feature takes a split second to bring the engine back on when you lift off the brake . . then occasionally there's a little engine surge before the transmission engages. I don't think that's anything to worry about, especially if it only happens in slow moving bumper-to-bumper traffic situations. The hesitiation sounds odd, though. That may be the same issue we're having, only we feel it more like a pulsing or bucking. I have to say that I'm sill very happy with our hybrid even though it has a few quirks. The situation has not gotten any worse and the problem happens very rarely.