The Hybrid Debate - Is it worth it?

duk · 01-31-2008, 11:50 PM

So i just figured i would throw this out there because it has been on my mind lately: Are hybrid cars worth buying? Sure they have great fuel economy and are good for the environment. But might it have been smarter to wait or buy car with a different system?
Consider this: How long will hybrid's actually be around for? Hell the name says it, hybrid, a mix of two systems. The old = gas, the new = electricity. I mean to me it seems like hybrid's are just a stepping stone in the world of fuel efficiency. How long will it be until there are just electric cars or just biodiesel? I can't help but think that dropping 30G's on a hybrid was a big mistake, because the resale value on that is NILL! Unless i sell it in the next couple years no one is going to want it because there are much more fuel effiicent cars out there. Think of the latest biodiesel audi, it gets TWICE the mileage as these things!!! I mean that is a slap to the face for me who bought this for fuel economy. I guess the best way for me to get my worth out of this car is drive it for 15-20 years until it dies.

Thoughts?

brazilianguy · 01-31-2008, 11:55 PM

Quote:

hybrid's are just a stepping stone in the world of fuel efficiency

hum you might want to check other countries for fuel, i know brasil has atleast 3 other types of fuel for car engines, and the cars run on all 3
i forget the types, but its gasoline and 2 others, one is some type of alcohol

i know they have it, and i know the US is trying to score a deal, but i dont know the details on the fuel types etc

FuturePundit: Brazil Shifting Toward Ethanol For Car Fuel

Litlelev · 01-31-2008, 11:56 PM

I've heard the premium for paid for hybrid over the regular version is greater than the savings from less gas. But that was at least a year ago and may not be true anymore. Either way it's still a more advanced car than the regular version and as with all technologies, it will be outdated but you should just be happy that you have a great hybrid now and get better fuel economy than 99% of the cars on the road today

NYDR27 · 02-01-2008, 12:26 AM

I think that Hybrids are a very practical solution for people who want to achieve higher mpgs without the hassle of being among the first to pioneer other technologies (i.e. electric, bio-diesel, hydrogen vehicles). While I agree that the technology is only a temporary solution, I do think it is an important first step into the right direction.

Is it worth it? It depends on the individual. Someone who owns an Si and likes to mod their car and show it off may not value a hybrid the same way a businessman who commutes 30 miles to work may and vice-versa. It all depends on the individual.

GoHuskies · 02-01-2008, 01:41 AM

If your trying to save money while still looking for a decently optioned car then yes. You could go with bare bones Fit, but that's still 15K. Add in some options and your looking at 16-17K or more.

Plus the hybrids offer benefits in many states.
Around here:
- CT is considering removing taxes on owning hybrids, and allowing us to use the HOV lane. We already had no sales tax on hybrids
- NY offers HOV lane use, free entrance to state/local parks/ 50% off many garage fees, free hybrid parking at meters in many towns/cities
- NJ offers HOV lane use, discount parking
The list goes on, cheaper insurance discounts, parking, HOV lanes, free-reduced parking, cheaper hotel discounts, etc.. Check your state

Considering even the Volt or the VUE plug in will get only 10-40 miles EV and will cost over 30,000 I think hybrids will still have a future for the time being.

Kurz · 02-01-2008, 08:03 AM

Remember it will take ~8 Years to recoup the savings of having a Hybrid car.
Hybrids are always a bit more expensive than a Car in their own class.
So it'll take a while for them to catch up.

GoHuskies · 02-01-2008, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurz

Remember it will take ~8 Years to recoup the savings of having a Hybrid car.
Hybrids are always a bit more expensive than a Car in their own class.
So it'll take a while for them to catch up.

That's based of a comparing the hybrid to an entry level model.

Compare a Camry hybrid to a similarly filled out Camry LE and they have only a 2500 price difference.

Compare the Prius to the matrix and again its a 2000 price difference

***cderalow*** · 02-01-2008, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoHuskies

That's based of a comparing the hybrid to an entry level model.

Compare a Camry hybrid to a similarly filled out Camry LE and they have only a 2500 price difference.

Compare the Prius to the matrix and again its a 2000 price difference

Prius/Matrix comparison aren't remotely close...

There really is no Prius equivalent in the Toyota line.

The Camry and Civic are the only two non-domestic hybrids based on a standard car...

My mother in-law has a 7th gen Hybrid... personally, I'm not a fan, but then again, I like power!

whtdvl · 02-01-2008, 10:37 AM

i think that they are cool..and you are correct..they are a stepping stone...what we have right now as far as hybrids are a stepping stone..

i have heard there is a possibility of the next prius being a diesel hybrid..which is another step up in the world of FE..

hybrids really shine when you try to get the best mpg possible out of them..and thats when you really get what you pay for over a regular gas car..

i have a long commute to work and am sometimes passed by Prius owners doing 75-80mph down the hwy...
Do you realize how much that defeats the purpose of driving a hybrid????

saiaba · 02-01-2008, 11:01 AM

I think at the moment they aren't worth it, and i feel like as they age their complex makeup will be a nightmare to pay for the service. Not to mention some of the complex makeup of their systems (not specificaly the honda hybrid) have to be disposed of in a different way so say you are getting work done, there may be a huge charge for disposal of waste or something.

It makes people feel better to say they are driving a hybrid though...

GoHuskies · 02-01-2008, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cderalow

Prius/Matrix comparison aren't remotely close...

There really is no Prius equivalent in the Toyota line.

The Prius is a hatchback hybrid. The matrix is a hatchback compact. They may be different platforms but the functionality is the same. They feature same seating and close storage functions. The matrix comes close enough in cost you'd have to be dumb to buy one unless your specifically going for the semi-sporty XRS.

Litlelev · 02-01-2008, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoHuskies

The Prius is a hatchback hybrid. The matrix is a hatchback compact. They may be different platforms but the functionality is the same. They feature same seating and close storage functions. The matrix comes close enough in cost you'd have to be dumb to buy one unless your specifically going for the semi-sporty XRS.

theres a pretty big price difference for a base matrix and a base prius. Matrix is 16-20k and prius is 21-23k. Plus i think the matrix has a lot more storage.

duk · 02-01-2008, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whtdvl

i
i have a long commute to work and am sometimes passed by Prius owners doing 75-80mph down the hwy...
Do you realize how much that defeats the purpose of driving a hybrid????

Actually my best fuel economy is undoubtedly at fast speeds using cruise control. I got my best FE to date the other day driving 150 KM's at about 110km/h

GoHuskies · 02-01-2008, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Litlelev

theres a pretty big price difference for a base matrix and a base prius. Matrix is 16-20k and prius is 21-23k. Plus i think the matrix has a lot more storage.

Matrix with automatic (most popular trans type) is 19K starting price for 2009

Base Prius is now 20K plus dealers like my local one are offering 750 cash back.

Size wise the matrix is still a little larger. So if that extra space is what you'll need then you'll be paying for it over time. Unless you absolutely need 4 more cubit feet of storage space then there is no valid reason to choose the matrix.

GoHuskies · 02-01-2008, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saiaba

I think at the moment they aren't worth it, and i feel like as they age their complex makeup will be a nightmare to pay for the service. Not to mention some of the complex makeup of their systems (not specificaly the honda hybrid) have to be disposed of in a different way so say you are getting work done, there may be a huge charge for disposal of waste or something.

It makes people feel better to say they are driving a hybrid though...

NYC has had hybrids taxi's since 2005 and by 2012 their entire fleet will be hybrids. The first Ford Escape hybrids are still running on the same battery today.

People seem to think a hybrid will need all sorts of replacement costs but the truth is a battery stilll costs less than many engines or transmissions. And you see people updating those all the time in other cars. I'd rather pay 1300 for a new battery after 300,000 miles than have to replace the engine and transmission on a chevy every 150,000.

Litlelev · 02-01-2008, 01:17 PM

The 09 base Matrix is 17 w/ auto.
2009 Toyota Matrix car trim and prices
and a base pris is 21 2008 Toyota Prius car trim and prices
I'm sure a base prius has more features than a bas matrix but the matrix is still a relatively cheap care.
Anyway back to topic, i see hybrids becoming very popular in the coming years. Their technology will could drastically improve FE and ease the transition to another form of power for our vehicles.

saiaba · 02-01-2008, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoHuskies

NYC has had hybrids taxi's since 2005 and by 2012 their entire fleet will be hybrids. The first Ford Escape hybrids are still running on the same battery today.

People seem to think a hybrid will need all sorts of replacement costs but the truth is a battery stilll costs less than many engines or transmissions. And you see people updating those all the time in other cars. I'd rather pay 1300 for a new battery after 300,000 miles than have to replace the engine and transmission on a chevy every 150,000.

I was more or less talking about the battery disposal part. but i see what you are saying.

whtdvl · 02-01-2008, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duk

Actually my best fuel economy is undoubtedly at fast speeds using cruise control. I got my best FE to date the other day driving 150 KM's at about 110km/h

by my calc that is 68mph...which will give better FE being around 10mph slower

GoHuskies · 02-01-2008, 03:51 PM

Matrix is 19K with auto when I tried: I think that included the 600 destination fee but still over 18K to begin with then. Prius is 20800 when I use the build now screen.

Jayhawker · 02-01-2008, 08:52 PM

It will take a long time for me to recoup the the savings I am supposed to get in the form of gasoline. But hey, I don't give a shit. The only reason I got this car was to be able to go in the HOV lane by myself. The moment they take away that option, I will drop this car like a bad habit. Not there is nothing wrong with the car, it's just slow. I am one who travels at 75+ mph in the HOV lane. The extra cost that I incurred is worth the time I get back from being allowed to be in the HOV lane. I will never get the "51" mpg as listed on the window sticker, but I average about 43 mpg and thats driving the car the way it WASN'T intended to be driven. Yes, I have got 53 mpg and that was driving it like Ms Daisy and that's to dangerous for me. It's a great commuter car and the HOV lane access is priceless. Now that the diesel is coming stateside, maybe they can make a diesel hybrid and really get some fuel economy.

01-31-2008, 11:50 PM	#1 (permalink)
duk Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Calgary Age: 23 Posts: 1,066 iTrader: 0 / 0%	The Hybrid Debate - Is it worth it? So i just figured i would throw this out there because it has been on my mind lately: Are hybrid cars worth buying? Sure they have great fuel economy and are good for the environment. But might it have been smarter to wait or buy car with a different system? Consider this: How long will hybrid's actually be around for? Hell the name says it, hybrid, a mix of two systems. The old = gas, the new = electricity. I mean to me it seems like hybrid's are just a stepping stone in the world of fuel efficiency. How long will it be until there are just electric cars or just biodiesel? I can't help but think that dropping 30G's on a hybrid was a big mistake, because the resale value on that is NILL! Unless i sell it in the next couple years no one is going to want it because there are much more fuel effiicent cars out there. Think of the latest biodiesel audi, it gets TWICE the mileage as these things!!! I mean that is a slap to the face for me who bought this for fuel economy. I guess the best way for me to get my worth out of this car is drive it for 15-20 years until it dies. Thoughts?

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01-31-2008, 11:56 PM	#3 (permalink)
Litlelev Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: NJ Posts: 1,017 iTrader: 3 / 100%	I've heard the premium for paid for hybrid over the regular version is greater than the savings from less gas. But that was at least a year ago and may not be true anymore. Either way it's still a more advanced car than the regular version and as with all technologies, it will be outdated but you should just be happy that you have a great hybrid now and get better fuel economy than 99% of the cars on the road today

02-01-2008, 12:26 AM	#4 (permalink)
NYDR27 Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: New York Posts: 58 iTrader: 1 / 100%	I think that Hybrids are a very practical solution for people who want to achieve higher mpgs without the hassle of being among the first to pioneer other technologies (i.e. electric, bio-diesel, hydrogen vehicles). While I agree that the technology is only a temporary solution, I do think it is an important first step into the right direction. Is it worth it? It depends on the individual. Someone who owns an Si and likes to mod their car and show it off may not value a hybrid the same way a businessman who commutes 30 miles to work may and vice-versa. It all depends on the individual.

02-01-2008, 01:41 AM	#5 (permalink)
GoHuskies Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: CT Posts: 657 NE hypermiler iTrader: 1 / 100%	If your trying to save money while still looking for a decently optioned car then yes. You could go with bare bones Fit, but that's still 15K. Add in some options and your looking at 16-17K or more. Plus the hybrids offer benefits in many states. Around here: - CT is considering removing taxes on owning hybrids, and allowing us to use the HOV lane. We already had no sales tax on hybrids - NY offers HOV lane use, free entrance to state/local parks/ 50% off many garage fees, free hybrid parking at meters in many towns/cities - NJ offers HOV lane use, discount parking The list goes on, cheaper insurance discounts, parking, HOV lanes, free-reduced parking, cheaper hotel discounts, etc.. Check your state Considering even the Volt or the VUE plug in will get only 10-40 miles EV and will cost over 30,000 I think hybrids will still have a future for the time being.

02-01-2008, 08:03 AM	#6 (permalink)
Kurz Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 86 iTrader: 0 / 0%	Remember it will take ~8 Years to recoup the savings of having a Hybrid car. Hybrids are always a bit more expensive than a Car in their own class. So it'll take a while for them to catch up.

02-01-2008, 10:37 AM	#9 (permalink)
whtdvl Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Gainesville, FL Age: 25 Posts: 1,585 Lucas iTrader: 0 / 0%	i think that they are cool..and you are correct..they are a stepping stone...what we have right now as far as hybrids are a stepping stone.. i have heard there is a possibility of the next prius being a diesel hybrid..which is another step up in the world of FE.. hybrids really shine when you try to get the best mpg possible out of them..and thats when you really get what you pay for over a regular gas car.. i have a long commute to work and am sometimes passed by Prius owners doing 75-80mph down the hwy... Do you realize how much that defeats the purpose of driving a hybrid????

02-01-2008, 11:01 AM	#10 (permalink)
saiaba Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: VA-Richmond Age: 26 Posts: 482 Ryan iTrader: 0 / 0%	I think at the moment they aren't worth it, and i feel like as they age their complex makeup will be a nightmare to pay for the service. Not to mention some of the complex makeup of their systems (not specificaly the honda hybrid) have to be disposed of in a different way so say you are getting work done, there may be a huge charge for disposal of waste or something. It makes people feel better to say they are driving a hybrid though...

02-01-2008, 01:17 PM	#16 (permalink)
Litlelev Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: NJ Posts: 1,017 iTrader: 3 / 100%	The 09 base Matrix is 17 w/ auto. 2009 Toyota Matrix car trim and prices and a base pris is 21 2008 Toyota Prius car trim and prices I'm sure a base prius has more features than a bas matrix but the matrix is still a relatively cheap care. Anyway back to topic, i see hybrids becoming very popular in the coming years. Their technology will could drastically improve FE and ease the transition to another form of power for our vehicles.

02-01-2008, 03:51 PM	#19 (permalink)
GoHuskies Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: CT Posts: 657 NE hypermiler iTrader: 1 / 100%	Matrix is 19K with auto when I tried: I think that included the 600 destination fee but still over 18K to begin with then. Prius is 20800 when I use the build now screen.

02-01-2008, 08:52 PM	#20 (permalink)
Jayhawker Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 233 iTrader: 0 / 0%	It will take a long time for me to recoup the the savings I am supposed to get in the form of gasoline. But hey, I don't give a shit. The only reason I got this car was to be able to go in the HOV lane by myself. The moment they take away that option, I will drop this car like a bad habit. Not there is nothing wrong with the car, it's just slow. I am one who travels at 75+ mph in the HOV lane. The extra cost that I incurred is worth the time I get back from being allowed to be in the HOV lane. I will never get the "51" mpg as listed on the window sticker, but I average about 43 mpg and thats driving the car the way it WASN'T intended to be driven. Yes, I have got 53 mpg and that was driving it like Ms Daisy and that's to dangerous for me. It's a great commuter car and the HOV lane access is priceless. Now that the diesel is coming stateside, maybe they can make a diesel hybrid and really get some fuel economy.