The Hybrid Debate - Is it worth it?

[whtdvl]

^mmmm diesel hybrid FTW

[CivicHybridOwner]

The resale value on hybrids will be higher than non-hybrids in absolute terms. In terms of how they hold their value vs. non-hybrid Civics they will probably be comparable.

To run the numbers, you need to know how much you drive (easy) as well as future gas prices (hard), and also consider how long you will own it.

My payback ratio, taking into account the $4k hybrid premium over the entry level Civic LX (I don't consider the DX because I would never buy a car without a/c) is calculated as follows:

I drive 1,600 miles per month, and gas here is at $3.15/gallon for simplicity's sake (here it is a little higher). The hybrid gets 45mpg hwy, the LX 36. Monthly fuel cost for hybrid: $112, monthly fuel costs for LX: $140. Monthly savings of $28. Okay at these prices it will take 12 years to pay itself back, thats a pretty long time. But this assumes gas prices remain constant at $3.15.

But what it also provides is a bit of a hedge or insurance against rising gas prices. I am more insulated from the volatile swings in gas prices with this hybrid, which helps even out my cash flows, which I like. It doesn't matter what gas goes to I will be more insulated from them than the other guy.

[jennerz22]

I did my taxes this weekend and would have gotten back an extra $1700 if I had purchased a Civic Hybrid over the Si that I purchased. Are you guys taking that into effect when you're thinking of recouping the costs?

[secretaznman46]

I think it's true what the OP said that hybrids are a stepping stone, but I think it will be a long way until we have another fuel or technology that is readily available. Honda built a hydrogen car but where are you going to fill it up? The infrastructure is not there for many new technologies.

[CivicHybridOwner]

Originally Posted by jennerz22

I did my taxes this weekend and would have gotten back an extra $1700 if I had purchased a Civic Hybrid over the Si that I purchased. Are you guys taking that into effect when you're thinking of recouping the costs?

I wasn't on mine even though I got the full credit because the tax credit is now reduced to 1050 from the original 2100 and will disappear by the end of the year.

[twinsnails]

I agree with Jayhawker, it all depends on what the buyer's objectives are and I too plan on getting rid of my hybrid once my carpool access expires. I traded in a new S4 for a hybrid when I got my new job primarily for the carpool access. The fuel and maintenance costs are obvious cheaper, which is (was) nice. However, if my concerns were fuel and maintenance, I would not have ponied up the premium paid for my hybrid, nor would I have settled for the lack of power relative to other options (i.e., I would have opted for more power than fuel efficiency).

The new diesel turbos that are coming out seem like a nice alternative given the power and fuel efficiency, albeit the premium paid over lesser models (depending on the vehicle) will still be an issue.

[patentlawyer]

I purchased an '06 HCH a few week ago, mainly to be able to drive in carpool lane. My regular drive (which I still own) is a Benz S430 Sport (with AMG kit). Even moving from top of the line sedan, I really like the HCH. Yeh, it could use more horses, but otherwise it delivers what it was intended to deliver. Last Friday I filled up: 10.1 gallons, and I showed 456 miles. Not bad at at all. One thing I wish they have done, though, is have ski pouch between the rear seats so I don't have to carry my skies on top. I went skiing a couple of weeks ago and got about 33miles/gallon due to skies on roof.

By the way, driving easy I get about 21miles/gallon on commute and 28 miles/gallon highway on the S430 - basically an aircraft carrier compared to the HCH. When I take it to service they give me a C-class loaner and I cannot get such mileage from it. Go figure.

[gregk]

What was that little FIAT I was reading about that gets 60-70 MPG? When i was in france, my friend rented a little POS car, he drove it all weekend with 4 people in it and he said it was like 3/4 full when he was done.

Our cars are just too damn big. The regulations need to happen where SUVs and trucks become smaller, cars become smaller and lighter and efficency will go up a lot. Hybrids aren't a great solution long term because they don't address the underlying problem of design evolution toward bigger and heavier vehicles.

Most hybrids are just being designed to give the cars extra torque. It's insane. The add for the giant GMC Yukon last night almost made me puke. Take a monstrosity that murders people when it hits them and make it get 50% more mileage in the city. From 8 to 12.

Give me a break.

I'd like to see honda try to build a new CRX with an up to date engine.

[Tastycakes]

Originally Posted by GoHuskies

NYC has had hybrids taxi's since 2005 and by 2012 their entire fleet will be hybrids. The first Ford Escape hybrids are still running on the same battery today.

People seem to think a hybrid will need all sorts of replacement costs but the truth is a battery stilll costs less than many engines or transmissions. And you see people updating those all the time in other cars. I'd rather pay 1300 for a new battery after 300,000 miles than have to replace the engine and transmission on a chevy every 150,000.

Did he just say a Chevy last's 150,000 miles? lol I think even a $8000 brand new kia would make it to 200k, i know my ol 1995 Taurus did . And its more of a over time thing. A Chevy will run fine @ 150k miles 15 years later, will a hybrid run fine w/ any amount of miles 15 years later?

Originally Posted by gregk

What was that little FIAT I was reading about that gets 60-70 MPG? When i was in france, my friend rented a little POS car, he drove it all weekend with 4 people in it and he said it was like 3/4 full when he was done.

Our cars are just too damn big. The regulations need to happen where SUVs and trucks become smaller, cars become smaller and lighter and efficency will go up a lot. Hybrids aren't a great solution long term because they don't address the underlying problem of design evolution toward bigger and heavier vehicles.

Most hybrids are just being designed to give the cars extra torque. It's insane. The add for the giant GMC Yukon last night almost made me puke. Take a monstrosity that murders people when it hits them and make it get 50% more mileage in the city. From 8 to 12.

Give me a break.

I'd like to see honda try to build a new CRX with an up to date engine.

Yea it does suck. I never felt safe in my Yaris to be honest. The little car weighed like 2300lbs vs 2800 w/ the Si. I still dont feel safe in the Si. I'll never understand why ppl drive such huge cars. Like some ppl, they dont have to haul tools or 5 ladders or 8 kids to soccer but still drive 12 MPG 80,000,000 lb cars for just simple commuting.

It was funny tho the other day a new full size SUV (maybe a subabran, at least in size) was filling up when i pulled up to the pump. I successfully swipped my card, filled my tank, from empty, and left before he stopped pumping.

[whtdvl]

Originally Posted by secretaznman46

I think it's true what the OP said that hybrids are a stepping stone, but I think it will be a long way until we have another fuel or technology that is readily available. Honda built a hydrogen car but where are you going to fill it up? The infrastructure is not there for many new technologies.

i want to say honda only released around 100 of the hydrogen powered "FCX" and they were only leased to people in certain cities in california and all of those cities had fueling stations set up by honda(in certain areas of course)..i think for the lease/insurance/fuel honda was charging $600/month....nice deal if you ask me

Originally Posted by twinsnails

I agree with Jayhawker, it all depends on what the buyer's objectives are and I too plan on getting rid of my hybrid once my carpool access expires. I traded in a new S4 for a hybrid when I got my new job primarily for the carpool access. The fuel and maintenance costs are obvious cheaper, which is (was) nice. However, if my concerns were fuel and maintenance, I would not have ponied up the premium paid for my hybrid, nor would I have settled for the lack of power relative to other options (i.e., I would have opted for more power than fuel efficiency).

The new diesel turbos that are coming out seem like a nice alternative given the power and fuel efficiency, albeit the premium paid over lesser models (depending on the vehicle) will still be an issue.

it'll be nice when toyota or honda bring some of thier diesels over here..just like you were saying with your S4 the cost to repair would have been higher than on he honda..

another advantage to diesels is that they are built strong to withstand the higher stress the engine undergoes..i know the CR on diesels engines is typically 16:1 or higher..your adverage car is typically between 9-10:1..

^the disadvantage to diesels is that you have to find a "diesels" mechanic b/c typically your average mechanic won't work on diesels...so you have to look for a mechanic that works on them OR go to the stealership to have work done on them..

i think one of the biggest pro's to diesels is that since they are built so strong they have a long life expectancy...i'd imagine the average life for a diesel motor before overhaul/rebuild is like 400-500k miles

Originally Posted by gregk

What was that little FIAT I was reading about that gets 60-70 MPG? When i was in france, my friend rented a little POS car, he drove it all weekend with 4 people in it and he said it was like 3/4 full when he was done.

Our cars are just too damn big. The regulations need to happen where SUVs and trucks become smaller, cars become smaller and lighter and efficency will go up a lot. Hybrids aren't a great solution long term because they don't address the underlying problem of design evolution toward bigger and heavier vehicles.

Most hybrids are just being designed to give the cars extra torque. It's insane. The add for the giant GMC Yukon last night almost made me puke. Take a monstrosity that murders people when it hits them and make it get 50% more mileage in the city. From 8 to 12.

Give me a break.

I'd like to see honda try to build a new CRX with an up to date engine.

whenever i get to talking to people about mpg i almost always say what you did here...that we have way overpowered and way to big vehicles..

like the Escalade for instance..if you look at the original one and the current one..mpg ratings have practically stayed the same..BUT NOW IT HAS LIKE 200HP MORE!!! why do you need a 400hp SUV..the thing runs like a mid 14 sec 1/4 mile..

i think car manufacturers would sell sooo many more vehicles if they would back off of the straight line performance and offer more economy..they have advanced engine designs on every vehicle yet cars aren't really getting any better mpg then they were 10-20 years ago




sorry for the rants

[dc5jimbo]

Originally Posted by whtdvl

i want to say honda only released around 100 of the hydrogen powered "FCX" and they were only leased to people in certain cities in california and all of those cities had fueling stations set up by honda(in certain areas of course)..i think for the lease/insurance/fuel honda was charging $600/month....nice deal if you ask me

it'll be nice when toyota or honda bring some of thier diesels over here..just like you were saying with your S4 the cost to repair would have been higher than on he honda..

another advantage to diesels is that they are built strong to withstand the higher stress the engine undergoes..i know the CR on diesels engines is typically 16:1 or higher..your adverage car is typically between 9-10:1..

^the disadvantage to diesels is that you have to find a "diesels" mechanic b/c typically your average mechanic won't work on diesels...so you have to look for a mechanic that works on them OR go to the stealership to have work done on them..

i think one of the biggest pro's to diesels is that since they are built so strong they have a long life expectancy...i'd imagine the average life for a diesel motor before overhaul/rebuild is like 400-500k miles

whenever i get to talking to people about mpg i almost always say what you did here...that we have way overpowered and way to big vehicles..

like the Escalade for instance..if you look at the original one and the current one..mpg ratings have practically stayed the same..BUT NOW IT HAS LIKE 200HP MORE!!! why do you need a 400hp SUV..the thing runs like a mid 14 sec 1/4 mile..

i think car manufacturers would sell sooo many more vehicles if they would back off of the straight line performance and offer more economy..they have advanced engine designs on every vehicle yet cars aren't really getting any better mpg then they were 10-20 years ago




sorry for the rants

i agree with you well put to and well has for the escalade goes 400hp suv is alot well it least soccer moms can get to the game easy

[wing_gundam]

When you look at the hybrid debate you really have to consider how much city driving you are going to do, and whether the car can run in pure electric mode for low acceleration or idle time etc. I think some cars are different than others. If you're driving on the highway, than it really doesn't matter if you have a hybrid or not, and the extra outlay for the half electric motor will take that much longer to recoup.



If you look at it from a purely numbers game then I would approach it like this:

1) you have to know how much you can get on a return for your money if invested elsewhere - idk say 3%?

Buying:

Cost today xxx (for a sedan) xxxx (For a hybrid including applicable credits adjust for time)

Resale in x (say 5) years: xx Gas xxx hybrid
PV of resale @ 5 years, 3% xx gas xxx hybrid

Avg estimated fuel cost: $3000 gas $2500 hybrid (guess)
PV of fuel cost in annuity for 5 years, 3%: xxx gas xxxx hybrid

Insurance difference if applicable
PV of insurance payments in annuity for 5 years, 3%


Once you have that cost difference, then you can roughly see, how many years at 3% it would take for you to recoup that.

[Slow_si]

I believe in 4-5 years the hybrid will pay for the gas you would have used in the non-hybrid version depending on the vehicle, obviously on a full size SUV Hybrid (GMC) Its likely to be half of that.

[wing_gundam]

yeah except GM cars don't really make hybrids,


they 'greenwash'

seriously if you think gm can build a hybrid you're fooling youself.



GM Shows Fake Hybrid Concept SUV to Journalists? : TreeHugger

Hyperbolic hybrid fever notches up another degree: GMC's Graphyte concept hybrid SUV - AutoWeek Magazine

Is the Chevy Volt just more GM greenwashing? | Gristmill: The environmental news blog | Grist

The Understory » RAN Supporters Shut Down GM Greenwashing Site!


Plus some other articles I could find later...

I participated in a debate about environmental accounting and argued the point that many will fake being green for profit, esp GM




Sorry, this might be off topic, but I will not let someone meniton the words GM, Hybrid in the same sentace without the term, FAKE or LIE in it :)

[Hillbilly]

Ah hybrids. Save fuel, save the planet, mother earth, green. Oh please. Baby-boomers get over yourselves. These are reactionary vehicles built by a selfish generation who wants "to make a difference." First, much like compact fluorescent bulbs and their mercury content, hybrids are loaded with not so healthy heavy metal batteries and electric motors. The batteries are quite toxic and will, like so many other cars, end up in salvage yards or on cinderblocks somewhere leaking away. Don't even get me started on the nastiness of a hybrid on fire. Ever think of where these metals come from? Some recycled for sure, more from mines. Of course these are nearly unregulated mines in the third world. Why the 3rd world? Are we out of these metals in the 1st world? Hardly.

Oil, well there is plenty of it out there, even in the U.S. Of course we cannot drill for it because it might cause "environmental problems" or "ruin a view." You cannot drill for oil off the California coast, off the near Gulf coast or in Lake Michigan because through the years the "save the earth" types have slowly but unabatedly made it impossible through laws, regulations, court decisions, and through "education" of our children who innocently suck it all in. Think of that, people and groups are using your children. The same people who want hybrids are often also the same type that have driven mining from the U.S., Canada, the U.K., etc. Meanwhile 3rd world countries roast away sulfide minerals, burn sulfur rich coal and do little reclaimation of the air, water and soil pollutants.

And then there is carbon dioxide. Oooh. I'm so scared. All one needs to know is that increased atmospheric levels of CO2 follow warming. They do not cause it. Rather warming caused increased CO2 levels. And it has been warming for over 12,000 year.

I'd go on but I have to put another log of carbon based material on the exothermic reaction in my ornamental and functional refractory constructed heater.

Cio.

[duk]

that was relevant

[secretaznman46]

Originally Posted by whtdvl

i want to say honda only released around 100 of the hydrogen powered "FCX" and they were only leased to people in certain cities in california and all of those cities had fueling stations set up by honda(in certain areas of course)..i think for the lease/insurance/fuel honda was charging $600/month....nice deal if you ask me

No doubt but 100 of them? I know they have to test them out, but thats not even a hundredth of a percent of all the cars on the road in the US. I'm not saying that we're not moving in the right direction, but I think the government needs to push in the right direction. With the government and big oil currently sleeping with each other I just don't see that happening.

[whtdvl]

^here is the link to the official page..

they said "a limited number" of them will be released to people in So. Cal.

Honda FCX Clarity - Drive FCX - Official Web Site

[wing_gundam]

Originally Posted by Hillbilly

Ah hybrids. Save fuel, save the planet, mother earth, green. Oh please. Baby-boomers get over yourselves. These are reactionary vehicles built by a selfish generation who wants "to make a difference." First, much like compact fluorescent bulbs and their mercury content, hybrids are loaded with not so healthy heavy metal batteries and electric motors. The batteries are quite toxic and will, like so many other cars, end up in salvage yards or on cinderblocks somewhere leaking away. Don't even get me started on the nastiness of a hybrid on fire. Ever think of where these metals come from? Some recycled for sure, more from mines. Of course these are nearly unregulated mines in the third world. Why the 3rd world? Are we out of these metals in the 1st world? Hardly.

Oil, well there is plenty of it out there, even in the U.S. Of course we cannot drill for it because it might cause "environmental problems" or "ruin a view." You cannot drill for oil off the California coast, off the near Gulf coast or in Lake Michigan because through the years the "save the earth" types have slowly but unabatedly made it impossible through laws, regulations, court decisions, and through "education" of our children who innocently suck it all in. Think of that, people and groups are using your children. The same people who want hybrids are often also the same type that have driven mining from the U.S., Canada, the U.K., etc. Meanwhile 3rd world countries roast away sulfide minerals, burn sulfur rich coal and do little reclaimation of the air, water and soil pollutants.

And then there is carbon dioxide. Oooh. I'm so scared. All one needs to know is that increased atmospheric levels of CO2 follow warming. They do not cause it. Rather warming caused increased CO2 levels. And it has been warming for over 12,000 year.

I'd go on but I have to put another log of carbon based material on the exothermic reaction in my ornamental and functional refractory constructed heater.

Cio.

Lol I've never seen so many random facts so loosely tied together to try and prove a point. Try coming up with an argument next time...

[spinner]

Originally Posted by whtdvl

i think one of the biggest pro's to diesels is that since they are built so strong they have a long life expectancy...i'd imagine the average life for a diesel motor before overhaul/rebuild is like 400-500k miles

I wouldn't count on the dream of diesel longevity. The assumption of rugged diesel engines may be more applicable to traditional engines that are relatively simplistic. Modern diesels -- and by modern I mean in consumer cars over the last 10 years, and prior to the forthcoming cleaner systems -- are complicated and more vulnerable due to turbo, EGR valve, intercooler, and high-pressure injection systems. Turbo failure and stuck EGR valves are a common problem. Add the diesel engine's vibration and you'll find hose seals loosening, contaminating the engine or causing A/C leaks, contaminating the world. The question won't be how much life does the engine block have in it, but how much more servicing you will have to do just to keep it running. Forthcoming diesels will have to cut emissions by some combination of extra catalytic converters, particulate filter, and the injection of AdBlue to the exhaust gas. The self-cleaning particulate filter has to run the fuel rich to add heat in order to burn off its trappings. Diesels used to be simpler than petrol engines; The tables have turned, and diesels are now much more complicated.