considerin hondata...questions

[TampaSi07]

Originally Posted by Freq18hz

That was my car BTW. Here is a link to the thread with the corrected dynos using the SAME *gasp!* smoothing and correction factor!

Dyno at ProStreet Today..

FYI: I've been on this forum for a month or so now, and honestly I've never heard/seen anyone post on here that has sounded like half the douchebag you are proving to be.

Ahh yes, the ad hominem logical fallacy. The last resort of a desperate man is to resort to personal attack.

You just called some really nice people,

I said "most." Now you are trying to strawman me. Not going to work I am afraid. You can't change what I said just to make it easier for yourself.

and a very helpful shop "a bunch of assholes." There are several memebers on this forum that take their cars there for tuning.

Magically they mistakenly used their dyno software in exactly the way that would show the most gains to someone that didn't know what they were looking at. I am sure it was purely accidental even though there were 50 other ways they could have mistakenly used the software that would have shown the largest gain. Just coincidence I guess.

The fact is: You "logically" speak out of your ass, and make claims that you can't back up.

I've posted 4 dynos of MY CAR. What have you posted?

Great, you have posted 4 dynos.

I'm not replying to anymore of your hostile and ignorant posts.

That's what every angry person says when he becomes frustrated by logic.

Go back to le mans already, your shitty attitude and sucky posts are ruining it for the rest of us. Look inward and you will find the true asshole.

The funniest part is you called me the "angry guy!"



Please, don't go on a shooting spree over a debate about the effectiveness of air intakes.

My god, what would you do if you actually had to argue about something important? This is why everyone today is on Prozac this and Zoloft that. They get so worked up over the most meaningless ****.

Goosfraba man, goosfraba. You may want to try one of these before you have a heart attack:

[Tom1222]

Originally Posted by '06Siguy

Personally, I'd do the exhaust first, intake second and header third. Just my opinion though. I'm sure others may dissagree. I only have the CAI myself. It sounds great. I wish I could get exaust. Just not high enough on the list.

I have done the Injen CAI first then the Vibrant Cat Back with BTW is one of the best sounding systems I have seen and heard Not quiet but not Super Loud either. Just a nice and very deep exhaust note without having a huge fart can sticking out of the rear
Vibrant is coming out with their Header/Cat combo and I am waiting for it to hit the market. Good Luck with your mods!
BTW, I think you did the right thing with the CAI being your first mod. The sound of the engine is sweet when you hit it

[Tom1222]

Originally Posted by TampaSi07

=

Goosfraba man, goosfraba. You may want to try one of these before you have a heart attack:

Hey, I will give those things a try. I just need more sand so I can kick it in your face

Naw, All is good and you are entitled to your opinions and what you believe in. But you are missing the point and probably the joy of life and therefore probably need Prozac and Zoloft and Viagra etc

If people are truly happy with their Intake mod and can actually feel a noticable difference in throttle response and performance and they get a smile on their face whenever they hit VTEC and the engine roars then it really doesn't matter what you or a pretty little piece of paper has to say.

You probably were one of those guys that on Christmas Morning told your little brother that there is no Santa Claus.

I feel sorry for you brother. Time to start living life again. Stop overanalyzing everything and just enjoy life a little. Now go out and play nice with the other rich kids. Bye Now..

[Mitch]

Originally Posted by Tom1222

You make another great point here. The HP is really mostly measured from the factory at the crank and doesn't take the intake into consideration. So in turn you don't have 197 whp but 197 crank hp.
What you do with the intake or most other add on mods you actually free up more of the usable hp not adding to their dynoed crank HP.

197hp at the crank is measured with full intake, exhaust, emissions, and accessories, all under the revised SAE specified conditions. The component reducing the power to the wheels is the transmission, cv joints, and rotational mass (brake rotors, wheels, and tires). Out of those, the transmission is the biggest parasite.

[Freq18hz]

Originally Posted by TampaSi07

Ahh yes, the ad hominem logical fallacy. The last resort of a desperate man is to resort to personal attack.



I said "most." Now you are trying to strawman me. Not going to work I am afraid. You can't change what I said just to make it easier for yourself.



Magically they mistakenly used their dyno software in exactly the way that would show the most gains to someone that didn't know what they were looking at. I am sure it was purely accidental even though there were 50 other ways they could have mistakenly used the software that would have shown the largest gain. Just coincidence I guess.







Great, you have posted 4 dynos.



That's what every angry person says when he becomes frustrated by logic.



The funniest part is you called me the "angry guy!"



Please, don't go on a shooting spree over a debate about the effectiveness of air intakes.

My god, what would you do if you actually had to argue about something important? This is why everyone today is on Prozac this and Zoloft that. They get so worked up over the most meaningless ****.

Goosfraba man, goosfraba. You may want to try one of these before you have a heart attack:

Originally Posted by TampaSi07
On the above dyno runs they are using 0 smoothing which NO ONE uses because it counts little tiny momentary spikes and will ALWAYS produce a higher number. Also, the second run is TOTALLY UNCORRECTED, but the first run is DIN (Is this dyno shop on crack? No one uses DIN!) and DIN will aways produce about a 2% lower number. In the end it looks to me like the CAI made ZERO difference when you factor in correction and smoothing.

Sure looks to me like that shop knows how to keep the customers coming back. What they are doing is VERY SHADY. They should save all their runs though and they can go back and overlay them using the SAME correction factor. Hmmm, I wonder why they didn't do that in the first place. LOL

EDIT: LMFAO I just read the dyno shop sold the guy the intake? What a bunch of assholes! They knew exactly what they were doing and that's why you don't have the overlay with the same correction factor applied. Oh well, that's one way to make a higher HP number I guess. That is so dishonest.

"Ahh yes, the ad hominem logical fallacy. The last resort of a desperate man is to resort to personal attack."

------

logic < common sense


-Freq

[TampaSi07]

Originally Posted by Freq18hz

logic < common sense

I thought you were done posting? The road to hell is paved with good intentions and common sense. When people thought the earth was flat they also thought common sense was better than logic. Hey, welcome to 600 years ago!

To all those that have an open mind and aren't falling for the cult-like brainwashed madness you can definitely see how myths get perpetuated. It's no different than old ladies living in Mexico that believe in El Chupacabra!

It's fun confronting fanatical believers because you can see how quickly they resort to blatant name calling. They simply have no argument so that's all they can do. The fact that someone can get so angry about something like this is hilarious.

I am now done posting about this. Unlike you I mean it to so have whatever crazy last word you want on the subject to make yourself feel good.

[aki]

Ooo, I love the debating on this thread. I think both sides bring valid points (TampaSi07, Tom1222). That said,

1) CAI's run warmer than stock airboxes. Yes, I know it uses the word "Cold", and has a pipe running down to the bumper, away from the engine compartment. However, keep in mind that the metal piping is continually exposed to engine heat, and that metal transfers heat much more effectively than plastic. You're basically cannibalizing the lower temp of getting cooler air with the air getting warmed by the hot metal piping.
2) CAI's gains come from less restriction. The stock air box is very restrictive, both due to its shape and also due to the filter itself. Many aftermarket filters are less restrictive, but also let more dirt pass through. Piping shape can be optimized for increased airflow, hence the gains seen on CAI and SRI.
3) K20's respond well to intake mods. This is where I respectfully disagree with TampaSi07. Getting 10+ WHP gains is not just a handful of isolated cases. Go on RSX boards and you see very similar dyno results posted. Maybe Honda makes the stock intake very restrictive out of the factory, but these engines have always had a rep of being responsive to a new filter-on-a-stick. Granted, in most cars an intake doesn't make much of a diff, but in this case I'd say they do.
4) 0 Smoothening doesn't produce fluctuations of 15whp. Yes, the figures get spikey, but at most the spikes are 1-2hp, not a whopping 15whp across a considerable RPM band.

In short, CAI's have their ups and downs, and are mostly good for producing high-end gains (a lot of times at cost of low-end).

[Stealthcivic]

I like this post I started, and am learning from it...another question....
What mod will give me a gain (intake, header, exaust, hondata, turbo, free flow cat, etc) without taking any loss in torque or any low end loss?

[Selektaa]

I haven't read through the entire thread, but I've got a baseline vs Injen CAI that was done on my car not too long ago. For some reason the numbers on my dyno aren't as high as high as I've seen elsewhere (baseline and after) but the red line with the CAI (the ONLY performance mod) definitely shows gains over stock, especially around 5k...

Hell, even if the CAI didn't do much of anything for performance (it does) the sound alone is worth the price of admission.

[Tom1222]

Originally Posted by Mitch

197hp at the crank is measured with full intake, exhaust, emissions, and accessories, all under the revised SAE specified conditions. The component reducing the power to the wheels is the transmission, cv joints, and rotational mass (brake rotors, wheels, and tires). Out of those, the transmission is the biggest parasite.

Okay, I believe you! The load that is put on the motor to the driveline does take up a good chunk of power so it stands to reason to free up as much ponies as you can. I think and intake, header and exhaust are a few good items for a good start

[Tom1222]

Originally Posted by Selektaa

I haven't read through the entire thread, but I've got a baseline vs Injen CAI that was done on my car not too long ago. For some reason the numbers on my dyno aren't as high as high as I've seen elsewhere (baseline and after) but the red line with the CAI (the ONLY performance mod) definitely shows gains over stock, especially around 5k...

Hell, even if the CAI didn't do much of anything for performance (it does) the sound alone is worth the price of admission.

+1 Still not bad. 8 1/2 Ponies out of an intake isn't bad. Plus the overall responsiveness changed as well which can't be meassured on any dyno.

[Tom1222]

Originally Posted by Stealthcivic

I like this post I started, and am learning from it...another question....
What mod will give me a gain (intake, header, exaust, hondata, turbo, free flow cat, etc) without taking any loss in torque or any low end loss?

Well, personally I would go with a Turbo set up or a Supercharger set up.
That way you get excellent HP increases along with increases in torque.
Personally, I went the cheaper route and did a Nitrous Oxide injection with 75 shot of Nitrous. Car runs great on it without any issues. Only bad thing is that the bottle does run out and a Turbo or Supercharger never does

[Mister Two]

Originally Posted by TampaSi07

You found one anomalous dyno sheet that is counter to the vast majority. The exceptions don't disprove the rule. You can chose to believe the 5% of dyno sheets that say one thing, but I'll stick with the 95% with better documentation that say another.

Do you have any thoughts as to why this dyno graph and another someone just posted show gains? I've searched this forum extensively for dynos also and I can't say that I've seen many graphs showing before and after runs w/ an intake. I understand what your argument is and how you came about it but how many graphs have you seen that show before and after runs w/ an intake?

Do you think these two cars had defective air filters like the GT500's recently had or something like that? Both did end up putting down numbers close to stock. What are your thoughts on this?

[Fiji06SI]

I posted a message on Vtec.net the other day asking about group buys on the Hondata Reflash for the 06 Civic SI. Shawn Church of Church Automotive stepped up and offered the reflash at a $50 discount if we can round up 10 people or $75 off with 20 people. He also agreed to donate $10 of each reflash purchased to vtec.net

Vtec.net Group Buy Thread

Post in the thread if you are interested.

[Stealthcivic]

Originally Posted by Tom1222

Well, personally I would go with a Turbo set up or a Supercharger set up.
That way you get excellent HP increases along with increases in torque.
Personally, I went the cheaper route and did a Nitrous Oxide injection with 75 shot of Nitrous. Car runs great on it without any issues. Only bad thing is that the bottle does run out and a Turbo or Supercharger never does

Well, I appreciate it, but do I need to get an exaust and other mods once I get turbo...turbo is $4000!
Hondata and an exaust /intake is $1500......so, I might have to chose the ecu route!

[Tom1222]

Originally Posted by Stealthcivic

Well, I appreciate it, but do I need to get an exaust and other mods once I get turbo...turbo is $4000!
Hondata and an exaust /intake is $1500......so, I might have to chose the ecu route!

Nitrous Oxide is cheaper than that. $550.00 bucks and you will get more of a HP gain than with the Hondata, exhaust and intake combined Plus it's only there when you want it Great mod for the Si!

[Mitch]

Originally Posted by Tom1222

Nitrous Oxide is cheaper than that. $550.00 bucks and you will get more of a HP gain than with the Hondata, exhaust and intake combined Plus it's only there when you want it Great mod for the Si!

You don't have to refill Hondata every time you use it too much. You have that extra power until you run out of gas. Then fill it up and you have more power again.

[Tom1222]

Originally Posted by Mitch

You don't have to refill Hondata every time you use it too much. You have that extra power until you run out of gas. Then fill it up and you have more power again.

That is true. The only thing that shy's me away from Hondadata is that I can't easily remove it or program it if I switch mods. I am waiting for a tuner device to come out that lets us tweak the ECU according to our mods and not be stuck with a "Once size fits all" type of tune. Besides I think the Hondadata is too expensive for what it is. All it does is change your VTEC curve and raise your rev limit. They don't even mess with the air fuel and timing curves. So yes it may feel different and maybe even faster but I am not convinced and will wait until some other options will be available.

[Stealthcivic]

Ok, I am almost ready to get an intake or header and free flowin cat and hondata ecu.
I just need to narrow it down intake or header, but I am pretty set with free flowin cat and hondata.

[oleredsi07]

thats what im doing i have a friend with a black two do with a header and cold air i cant touch him with mine and his is only loud when he is really doging it other then that just sound like ne other mines one the way header and intake