WDCR 5/4 Autocross Event #2 Update - Video Included

piknockout · 05-05-2008, 03:27 PM

Video: MySpaceTV Videos: Video Charts: User Videos - All - Today's Top Plays

CLIFFS: Won 1st in STX of 16, 23rd in PAX of 222, learned a lot about Bridgestone tire temp management, need to make a few adjustments to the car, and there's still some more potential in the car and driver.

So you may be asking yourself (but probably not)...where was the Event #1 update? Well if you were so inclined to wonder, the answer has to with us being lucky enough to stand outside in the rain all morning, just to have the event cancelled halfway through the day due to violent thunderstorms including lightning...and later to find out a tornado that hit close nearby. So I think they made the right call.

With yesterday's event being threatened with rain all week long in the forecast, we were blessed with perfectly sunny skies and balmy 72 degree weather and I light breeze. Couldn't have asked for a better day, although I should have used some sunscreen.

With a test and tune under my belt in dry conditions, I felt like I had a pretty good handle on the car. On that day, while the car felt like it kind of wanted to understeer at times, I decided to leave everything unchanged for at least one event.

I was lucky enough to get 3 course walks in, which on this particular course was a HUGE help. Definitely several spots where getting off line would kill you, I felt like I knew the course well enough in my head, along with all of the really key sections.

First run: Went out on my first run, and the car felt perfect! Just a hint of oversteer where needed, plenty of grip in the front, and transitioning fantastically. The extra course walk paid off, as I had no issues figuring out where the course went and no trouble with the right line. End result was a 60.505, a time so good apparently that I couldn't improve upon it and it was my best run of the day. More on that next.

Second run: After watching video of the first run, I felt as if there were spots in the two turn arounds where I could take a better line. In my quest to find a better line, I forgot that you also need to be aggressive still. I ended up being WAY too conservative in those spots and finished with a 61.5XX, over a second slower.

Third run: Watched the video and realized I wasn't aggressive enough, so now it was time to lay it down. About a third of the way through the course, the car just starts plowing everywhere. You see, I learned an important lesson today on tire temp management with the Bridgestones. Chris Shenefield had warned me about this, yet I did not heed his warning. The Stones lose TONS of grip once they've overheated. And needless to say, the fronts at that point were fried, with the car washing out everywhere. Add to that the fact that as the fronts were at the point of overheating, the rears were just coming up to temperature with increased grip. This combination just caused the car to push everywhere. With this lack of balance and grip, the car was way off line in several spots and left me finishing with a 61.1XX and no help to my cause.

Fourth run: This was it, my last chance to break into the 59's. After spraying the tires off to cool them down, the car felt much better. Most of the overall balance was back and I was running a pretty good line throughout. Knowing that I had a solid STX lead (about a second), I made an attempt to be more aggressive and try to get that hero run. But alas, it was not to be. I nailed a cone in the last slalom section at the very end, and being pissed knowing that I had hit the cone, missed the braking zone right afterwards. Ended the run with a 60.6XX +1 cone on a run that I think could have dropped me into the 59's.

RESULTS: Finished the day 1st in STX out of 16 competitors, and more surprisingly 23rd in PAX out of 222...my best WDCR PAX finish (not counting the 3rd in PAX at the raining practice event). Ended up not too far off some top level National guys as well, only 0.4 PAX seconds off of Brian Garfield in an STS2 Miata on a slightly faster course. The afternoon required moving a cone to the good side of an offset by 3ft. to keep from tearing up a spot on the lot, providing the afternoon competitors a roughly 0.3-0.5 second benefit.

So all in a pretty good day. I was happy with my ending performance, happy to learn more about Bridgestone tire temp management, but just a little frustrated that I couldn't improve on my first run. But the best part about the day is the potential that I see for the future. Now I just need to find out how to tap into that potential, both in the car and the driver. Only time will tell. Man I can't wait for September!

hugeevilrobot · 05-06-2008, 10:46 AM

I found that course to be extremely tricky, got in 2 walks, but definitely could have used more- I parked it often enough even after the first run to really just kill my times. I assume you are running the re01Rs, I have seen what you mean about them losing tons of grip when overheated, got that really bad at one of the schools. I didnt have access to a pyrometer before, what temps do you find they start losing grip?

piknockout · 05-06-2008, 11:28 AM

Which car/class were you running in? Don't think I got a chance to meet you.

I don't have a pyrometer either, so I'm not sure exactly where they fall off. I'm sure some searching on sccaforums or PM'ing Chris will net an answer.

I'm running the A.I. event this Saturday and have some plans on how to manage it better. It involves increasing the rear sway just a hair stiffer and keeping the rears cool at all times and possibly increasing rear pressures. Probably will be cooling off the fronts after the second run as well. I also have a feeling that the very short intervals we had between runs contributed to the 3rd run problems as well.

**Gonzo** · 05-06-2008, 01:14 PM

Yeah, those were very short breaks. I was a little surprised.

That was a tricky course, many of the corners and slaloms were very much negatively offset (meaning you had to really "go" for the next cones as opposed to most slaloms I have encountered until then which are a straight line or offset in such a way that you can go faster then a straight line)

I think one problem I had was just due to newbishness and stupidity. The course very closely followed the general path of the one at the test and tune which was the last event I ran and I ran it many many times. I think I still had it stuck in my head which screwed me up.

That's ok though as it was a good lesson to have learned. I'll take more course walks for the next event and see it with new eyes and won't mistake any part of it for a previous course.

Josh, HugeEvilRobot was the guy running G-Stock in the blue Si Sedan (second morning heat)

I am still amused every time I feel my Azenis. They're more suedey than my alcantara interior.

piknockout · 05-06-2008, 01:39 PM

Gotcha, I remember seeing the car but didn't meet the man behind the wheel. I'll have to pay attention next event.

Conger, you got a lesson Sunday in offsets...and a lot of them! On heavily offset sections, running the correct line is the key to dropping time, much more so than trying to carry speed. Because if you miss the line while trying to carry more speed, you will inevitably end up WAY off line and screw up the entry to the following section. In this case giving it up a little bit early and driving a better line would net a ton more time. Remember Andy's first autocross tip? "Position first, then speed." That was your lesson.

The course was definitely more technical than most courses, blame Ian Baker for that.

hugeevilrobot · 05-06-2008, 02:03 PM

Better that you didnt see my times, I have to say i was pretty dissapointed, even if it was my first time on the new tires, or even driving my car at autox in 2 months- I think i was 182/222 or something, and had enough noob mistakes i know i shouldnt have made to really frustrate me. Hopefully things will go better at the AI meet- i see there are <20 folks in each heat, would it be wise to bring some water to keep the tires cool?

piknockout · 05-06-2008, 02:09 PM

I would say yes...unless mother nature decides to provide enough water for everyone.

I'll try and come find you at the event then. Always good to meet other forum members (here or elsewhere).

**Gonzo** · 05-06-2008, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by piknockout

Remember Andy's first autocross tip? "Position first, then speed." That was your lesson.

It certainly was.

piknockout · 05-07-2008, 09:59 AM

Don't worry too much about it, these things all take time. I finally feel like some of those little things are starting to become second nature, things I don't have to constantly think about. Just go out on course and do it. But then again, it's taken me 3-4 years for those things to start sinking in.

05-05-2008, 03:27 PM	#1 (permalink)
piknockout Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Maryland Posts: 154 Josh iTrader: 0 / 0%	WDCR 5/4 Autocross Event #2 Update - Video Included Video: MySpaceTV Videos: Video Charts: User Videos - All - Today's Top Plays CLIFFS: Won 1st in STX of 16, 23rd in PAX of 222, learned a lot about Bridgestone tire temp management, need to make a few adjustments to the car, and there's still some more potential in the car and driver. So you may be asking yourself (but probably not)...where was the Event #1 update? Well if you were so inclined to wonder, the answer has to with us being lucky enough to stand outside in the rain all morning, just to have the event cancelled halfway through the day due to violent thunderstorms including lightning...and later to find out a tornado that hit close nearby. So I think they made the right call. With yesterday's event being threatened with rain all week long in the forecast, we were blessed with perfectly sunny skies and balmy 72 degree weather and I light breeze. Couldn't have asked for a better day, although I should have used some sunscreen. With a test and tune under my belt in dry conditions, I felt like I had a pretty good handle on the car. On that day, while the car felt like it kind of wanted to understeer at times, I decided to leave everything unchanged for at least one event. I was lucky enough to get 3 course walks in, which on this particular course was a HUGE help. Definitely several spots where getting off line would kill you, I felt like I knew the course well enough in my head, along with all of the really key sections. First run: Went out on my first run, and the car felt perfect! Just a hint of oversteer where needed, plenty of grip in the front, and transitioning fantastically. The extra course walk paid off, as I had no issues figuring out where the course went and no trouble with the right line. End result was a 60.505, a time so good apparently that I couldn't improve upon it and it was my best run of the day. More on that next. Second run: After watching video of the first run, I felt as if there were spots in the two turn arounds where I could take a better line. In my quest to find a better line, I forgot that you also need to be aggressive still. I ended up being WAY too conservative in those spots and finished with a 61.5XX, over a second slower. Third run: Watched the video and realized I wasn't aggressive enough, so now it was time to lay it down. About a third of the way through the course, the car just starts plowing everywhere. You see, I learned an important lesson today on tire temp management with the Bridgestones. Chris Shenefield had warned me about this, yet I did not heed his warning. The Stones lose TONS of grip once they've overheated. And needless to say, the fronts at that point were fried, with the car washing out everywhere. Add to that the fact that as the fronts were at the point of overheating, the rears were just coming up to temperature with increased grip. This combination just caused the car to push everywhere. With this lack of balance and grip, the car was way off line in several spots and left me finishing with a 61.1XX and no help to my cause. Fourth run: This was it, my last chance to break into the 59's. After spraying the tires off to cool them down, the car felt much better. Most of the overall balance was back and I was running a pretty good line throughout. Knowing that I had a solid STX lead (about a second), I made an attempt to be more aggressive and try to get that hero run. But alas, it was not to be. I nailed a cone in the last slalom section at the very end, and being pissed knowing that I had hit the cone, missed the braking zone right afterwards. Ended the run with a 60.6XX +1 cone on a run that I think could have dropped me into the 59's. RESULTS: Finished the day 1st in STX out of 16 competitors, and more surprisingly 23rd in PAX out of 222...my best WDCR PAX finish (not counting the 3rd in PAX at the raining practice event). Ended up not too far off some top level National guys as well, only 0.4 PAX seconds off of Brian Garfield in an STS2 Miata on a slightly faster course. The afternoon required moving a cone to the good side of an offset by 3ft. to keep from tearing up a spot on the lot, providing the afternoon competitors a roughly 0.3-0.5 second benefit. So all in a pretty good day. I was happy with my ending performance, happy to learn more about Bridgestone tire temp management, but just a little frustrated that I couldn't improve on my first run. But the best part about the day is the potential that I see for the future. Now I just need to find out how to tap into that potential, both in the car and the driver. Only time will tell. Man I can't wait for September! Last edited by piknockout; 05-27-2008 at 08:48 PM.

05-06-2008, 01:14 PM	#4 (permalink)
Gonzo You're doing it wrong!! Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Richmond, VA Age: 21 Posts: 5,467 iTrader: 5 / 100%	Yeah, those were very short breaks. I was a little surprised. That was a tricky course, many of the corners and slaloms were very much negatively offset (meaning you had to really "go" for the next cones as opposed to most slaloms I have encountered until then which are a straight line or offset in such a way that you can go faster then a straight line) I think one problem I had was just due to newbishness and stupidity. The course very closely followed the general path of the one at the test and tune which was the last event I ran and I ran it many many times. I think I still had it stuck in my head which screwed me up. That's ok though as it was a good lesson to have learned. I'll take more course walks for the next event and see it with new eyes and won't mistake any part of it for a previous course. Josh, HugeEvilRobot was the guy running G-Stock in the blue Si Sedan (second morning heat) I am still amused every time I feel my Azenis. They're more suedey than my alcantara interior. Last edited by Gonzo; 05-06-2008 at 01:17 PM.

05-06-2008, 02:09 PM	#7 (permalink)
piknockout Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Maryland Posts: 154 Josh iTrader: 0 / 0%	I would say yes...unless mother nature decides to provide enough water for everyone. I'll try and come find you at the event then. Always good to meet other forum members (here or elsewhere). Last edited by piknockout; 05-06-2008 at 02:11 PM.

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05-06-2008, 10:46 AM	#2 (permalink)
hugeevilrobot Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 121 iTrader: 0 / 0%	I found that course to be extremely tricky, got in 2 walks, but definitely could have used more- I parked it often enough even after the first run to really just kill my times. I assume you are running the re01Rs, I have seen what you mean about them losing tons of grip when overheated, got that really bad at one of the schools. I didnt have access to a pyrometer before, what temps do you find they start losing grip?

05-06-2008, 11:28 AM	#3 (permalink)
piknockout Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Maryland Posts: 154 Josh iTrader: 0 / 0%	Which car/class were you running in? Don't think I got a chance to meet you. I don't have a pyrometer either, so I'm not sure exactly where they fall off. I'm sure some searching on sccaforums or PM'ing Chris will net an answer. I'm running the A.I. event this Saturday and have some plans on how to manage it better. It involves increasing the rear sway just a hair stiffer and keeping the rears cool at all times and possibly increasing rear pressures. Probably will be cooling off the fronts after the second run as well. I also have a feeling that the very short intervals we had between runs contributed to the 3rd run problems as well.

05-06-2008, 01:39 PM	#5 (permalink)
piknockout Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Maryland Posts: 154 Josh iTrader: 0 / 0%	Gotcha, I remember seeing the car but didn't meet the man behind the wheel. I'll have to pay attention next event. Conger, you got a lesson Sunday in offsets...and a lot of them! On heavily offset sections, running the correct line is the key to dropping time, much more so than trying to carry speed. Because if you miss the line while trying to carry more speed, you will inevitably end up WAY off line and screw up the entry to the following section. In this case giving it up a little bit early and driving a better line would net a ton more time. Remember Andy's first autocross tip? "Position first, then speed." That was your lesson. The course was definitely more technical than most courses, blame Ian Baker for that.

05-06-2008, 02:03 PM	#6 (permalink)
hugeevilrobot Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 121 iTrader: 0 / 0%	Better that you didnt see my times, I have to say i was pretty dissapointed, even if it was my first time on the new tires, or even driving my car at autox in 2 months- I think i was 182/222 or something, and had enough noob mistakes i know i shouldnt have made to really frustrate me. Hopefully things will go better at the AI meet- i see there are <20 folks in each heat, would it be wise to bring some water to keep the tires cool?

05-07-2008, 09:59 AM	#9 (permalink)
piknockout Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Maryland Posts: 154 Josh iTrader: 0 / 0%	Don't worry too much about it, these things all take time. I finally feel like some of those little things are starting to become second nature, things I don't have to constantly think about. Just go out on course and do it. But then again, it's taken me 3-4 years for those things to start sinking in.