Frankly, I'm tired of seeing people consider traffic light antics, and other forms of street racing, "real racing". Technically, we autocrossers are careful not to consider our sport "racing" as we do not compete wheel-to-wheel, but the skills we learn in parking lots across the country make us better than 99.95% of the drivers on the road.
I started this thread to call all the autocrossers forward and let us know who you are, what model Civic (or any other car for that matter) you are competing with and which SCCA (or other club) class you plan on building the car for...
DRIVER:
Anthony "Mario" Crea... I am a 15 year autocross veteran with almost 250 autocrosses under my belt at all levels of competition (regional, divisional, and national).
CAR:
Soon to be a 2010 Mazda 3s (5 door)
CLUB/CLASS:
SCCA H-Stock (local and national level competition)
One question that pops into mind is that you suggested I get a helmet...where do I get one that would be ok to use for AutoX?How much do they cost anyways.I figure I'll have to buy one anyways for the strip.
Open-face motorcycle helmets (Snell approved of course) are popular. There is one from a company called HJC that shouldn't run more than $100.
I just couldn't borrow helmets, especially on hot summer days when people sweat profusely after wearing them for 10 minutes and then giving them to you. No thanks.
I briefly looked at the rules for 2007 and as far as the Si goes and mods to it, there are very few it any changes. And for a Novice driver I don't think there is any thing that would matter.
I am still close to a novice driver my self. I have been though 4 events here in Hawaii now. I grew up driving nice winding country roads and have always though my self to be a good and competent driver, not excellent but better than many other on the road. Boy was my First AutoX a humbling experience. This is what I took from it, you can be a very good daily driver, know what your car can do, more or less, be able to take good lines on country roads, know where you think your limits of your car are, but step on to an auto x track with guys that have been doing it for years and its a whole new world.
Our pool of drivers here in Hawaii is smaller than many place in the US but we draw between 100 and 130(cap) people per event. We are lucky to have the womans national champ for SOLO II (two years running and sorry cant rember what class) and several other drivers that compete and do well in the nationals every year. We also have several divers that do very well at out events but chose to not go and race on the national level.
If you are starting out in auto x (bossman) I would highly recommend getting as much help as you can. At our events Novice drivers (first event) can have a coach in the car with them. take advantage of this they do know more than you and will be bale to help if you listen. Also if your events offer "fun runs" and you want to get better use them. Also at our events you can have other driver ride along with you in the fun runs, use this time to see if the other top drivers will ride with you and give you tips and advice. I try to do this at every event we have.
I am now consistently placing second in the GS class behind a mini cooper s that is running R comp tires and this guy is an excellent driver. I am now also placing top 30 at our events with the PAX adjusted times. I have ALOT to learn still and I am planning on staying on street tires until I have a skill level that justifies R comp.
So no matter how good you think you are, if this is your first event be prepared to be humbled. Most people at the Auto X events are really nice people that are just there to have a good time, and most of the time are more than willing to help you and give you advice, take advantage of it. And remember to have fun.
Ok so now I have a few questions for the experienced guys in here.
I have been running G Stock class and I am more than likely going to continue because the Si is a very well set up car for stock class and can be competitive. One of my areas that I am working on is breaking coming into corners. I was starting a little to early mostly because I was not breaking hard enough.
I was able to get 10 fun runs in at the last event (yesterday) and worked on this quite a bit along with my lines. I know that I can change my pads and still remain stock class, what is a good recommended pad? My car is 95% used for auto cross so noise is not of that much concern.
Also if any of you guys are running stock class with stock tires, I have the Pilot MX that came on the car, what pressures are you running at that you have found works well? I used a 37 psi front and a 34 PSI rear yesterday that worked well for me.
I have been running G Stock class and I am more than likely going to continue because the Si is a very well set up car for stock class and can be competitive.
Locally the Si will be an OK autocrosser, not Nationally, at least not without spending a ton of time and money on shock development. Being you live in Hawaii, unless you hop on a plane like Jennifer Lee and get a co-drive on the mainland, you aren't running National events anyway with that car!
One of my areas that I am working on is breaking coming into corners. I was starting a little to early mostly because I was not breaking hard enough.
I was able to get 10 fun runs in at the last event (yesterday) and worked on this quite a bit along with my lines. I know that I can change my pads and still remain stock class, what is a good recommended pad? My car is 95% used for auto cross so noise is not of that much concern.
The new Civic, in my experience, doesn't like to be trail-braked into corners, regardless if it is the Si or my LX. Some of this may be attributed to the EBD feature in the braking system. Regardless, get the braking done in a straight line and allow those front tires to work more efficiently for acceleration out of the corner as well as dealing with the act of cornering itself... ESPECIALLY because you are on the OEM tires. In other words, save your money on brake pads and put it towards the tire fund.
Also if any of you guys are running stock class with stock tires, I have the Pilot MX that came on the car, what pressures are you running at that you have found works well? I used a 37 psi front and a 34 PSI rear yesterday that worked well for me.
If that's what you're going to use, then I'd go up to 40 in the front and 55 in the rear. The car needs to rotate.
Also, do you have an autocross-specific alignment?
Jennifer Lee was saying that at the national event her dad was running as well and the car he had to beat was a Si. But it was set up for auto Cross.
I dont have an auto x specific alignment, what is a good set up to start at?
This spring we are going to be moving back to the mainland, to the NW and so I will be participating in Auto X up in that area. Not that I am good enough to go to nationals, but some day if I am it would be good fun. Even if I dont win or not even really in contention for the top spots, to be able to see all those drivers would be a lot of fun.
I will try that set up for the PSI and see how it works for me, but you are right the Si does not like to be trail braked into corners, if you are on the brakes and going into a corner your to push it, on the all seasons any way.
I had Jennifer ride with me at the last event and one thing she mentioned that I should do and she felt I was ready to try and the car was set up well for it was left foot braking. Is there any good resource that I could read up on this more before I start using it.
Tony makes good points, especially on braking and brake pads. If you're not going to go to r-compounds, I would suggest getting a set of the Falken Azenis or, for a few dollars more, the Advan Neovas. Either tire in the 225/45-17 size will wake the car up dramatically. I'm running the 225/50-16 Azenis on my stock, steel LX wheels for HS and they do just fine as daily drivers and they are a lot of fun on course.
I do take some umbridge with Tony's advice on pressures. I run 41F, 34R on my Azenis and I get the car to rotate. The following is a quote lifted from Chris Shenefield on his RedShift Motorsports site:
"If you run really high pressures to get the car to rotate, you will find the car will have more of a tendency to snap oversteer. Running lower pressure as a means of getting rotation will afford less "snappiness" at the limit because the tire is softer. Furthermore, the lower pressures in back allow a slightly higher slip angle at all lateral acceleration levels; so the tire has more lateral movement throughout the entire turning sequence (from low g to high g), and that's usually what you are after. High pressures induce oversteer by actual slip of the tread (oversteer), which is a little harder to control and can catch you off guard, especially on by fast courses."
So yes, the higher pressure in the back will get you some rotation, but a lower pressure will get you a more controlled rotation. This is a contradiction to normal autocross theory, but a lot of fast guys are using lower pressures. If you get a chance to test, try both. Your driving style might also dictate which pressure theory works for you. I'm still a hack, so I prefer lower pressures to control spins. I had some real doozies in the old STS car.
Name: Casey
Car: 2007 Civic Si sedan (bone stock for now)
Race affiliation: North Texas S2000 Owners
Brief: I have been racing since I was 19 when I bought my 99 Prelude (so that makes 8 years now)... I don't get to race as much as I would like (life gets in the way... and rubber ain't free ) but will be trying to make all 6 of the S2K events this year (all on street rubber).
Need: A second set of wheels to mount some racing "street" tires on instead of using my daily driver tires...
Now... I have to spend some time reading through all of the auto-x info for these cars....
The following is a quote lifted from Chris Shenefield on his RedShift Motorsports site:
"If you run really high pressures to get the car to rotate, you will find the car will have more of a tendency to snap oversteer. Running lower pressure as a means of getting rotation will afford less "snappiness" at the limit because the tire is softer. Furthermore, the lower pressures in back allow a slightly higher slip angle at all lateral acceleration levels; so the tire has more lateral movement throughout the entire turning sequence (from low g to high g), and that's usually what you are after. High pressures induce oversteer by actual slip of the tread (oversteer), which is a little harder to control and can catch you off guard, especially on by fast courses."
QUOTE]
Like that guy knows what he's talking about HA.
I know when I ran GS in teh si I had the 245's up front withthe 225's in the rear and ran umm around 14psi rear to help rotation. We found that that was almost ideal, and it just couldn't keep up withthe MINI's.
As Greg tried to say, but he couldn't put the beer down long enough to type a coherent sentence , the wheels must remain "stock" in size but the tires are free.
Stock wheels means stock diameter and width and the offset must be within 1/4" (about .6mm). Type and weight are free. We will be running 245/45-16 tires in front and 225/50-16 in the rear when we go to r-comps. This on a Rota 16x6.5 wheel with a 47 offset which is 2mm from stock.
The man is a mind reader!! Acutally its Pain medication tonight, root canal FTL
Why not go down to a 40 offset to get as much clearance and widen the track as much as possible. And acutally you could use the 47 in the rear to try to help the rear come around as much as possible.
Second, I don't think the 2006 Si that finished so low in the results (Sam Karp and his codriver) is being driven to its potential in such a tough GS; I'd be interested to see where Greg and Chris would have been with the car.
Wow, thanks for that. How would you know Anthony? Have we ever met for you to critique my driving? Where you at Nationals to see how the site behaves?
I'll admit, I'm not the best. I'm a mid-pack driver now at the best, so I will agree with you! I've only been doing this seriously for 3 years and this was my first year on R-comps. I have a lot to learn. I just don't agree with you saying it because you have no backing.
At least I had the balls and effort to show up with the car at multiple BIG events this year. Not taking anything away from Greg or Chris, but I performed very well at locals this year and sucked it up at Tour's. Don't put any stock into what the car or drivers did locally. Chris' past achievements precede him, but this car and tire was new game for him.
Our (Ben and I) nationals results was a little disappoint as I threw away a few spots with cones (hit stupid cones on both days fastest runs) and Ben was too nervous to even walk straight. Ben also puts very little effort into walking course (he walked west course twice). He learned the hard way with all of his DNF's. I was honestly expecting us in the mid 20's with low 20's....high teens as our stretch. We finished a little behind MY goal but learned a lot about the site this year and now that I have to set the car up a little tighter at my home events to have it behave well at HPT. We set the car up as loose as we could at Miller Park (a site many said is nearly identical to HPT in terms of grip) and were not expecting the problems with oversteer at HPT. We had rear pressures as low as 17psi in the warm-up and were still caught out. It was too low for the day-of-the-event though as we ran 3rd heat with good rubber down and right after the sand was cleared off line (which is huge since we run a slightly different line than the thoundands of spec-MINI's in the class). Next year we (or I) would come more prepared (as in fresh rear tires that grip, not heat-cycled out junkers that let the car rotate).
With that said, I am hoping to get out of the car for 2007. With the cost of custom shocks and how many tires we would eat, it would be less expensive to buy a 94-96 Miata R and run it in ES. As long as I can get the cash for the Miata, the Si will become a really expensive (as in $529 a month) daily driver.
PS-This is a really good thread. I just noticed it when paging around. Good info. I will keep my eye on it to see if I can contribute any more info.
I wish the best to you guys running nationally in HS next year. You are going to have a tough fight. I hope it turns out better than my attempt in GS.
Wow, thanks for that. How would you know Anthony? Have we ever met for you to critique my driving? Where you at Nationals to see how the site behaves?
I'll admit, I'm not the best. I'm a mid-pack driver now at the best, so I will agree with you! I've only been doing this seriously for 3 years and this was my first year on R-comps. I have a lot to learn. I just don't agree with you saying it because you have no backing.
At least I had the balls and effort to show up with the car at multiple BIG events this year. Not taking anything away from Greg or Chris, but I performed very well at locals this year and sucked it up at Tour's. Don't put any stock into what the car or drivers did locally. Chris' past achievements precede him, but this car and tire was new game for him.
Our (Ben and I) nationals results was a little disappoint as I threw away a few spots with cones (hit stupid cones on both days fastest runs) and Ben was too nervous to even walk straight. Ben also puts very little effort into walking course (he walked west course twice). He learned the hard way with all of his DNF's. I was honestly expecting us in the mid 20's with low 20's....high teens as our stretch. We finished a little behind MY goal but learned a lot about the site this year and now that I have to set the car up a little tighter at my home events to have it behave well at HPT. We set the car up as loose as we could at Miller Park (a site many said is nearly identical to HPT in terms of grip) and were not expecting the problems with oversteer at HPT. We had rear pressures as low as 17psi in the warm-up and were still caught out. It was too low for the day-of-the-event though as we ran 3rd heat with good rubber down and right after the sand was cleared off line (which is huge since we run a slightly different line than the thoundands of spec-MINI's in the class). Next year we (or I) would come more prepared (as in fresh rear tires that grip, not heat-cycled out junkers that let the car rotate).
With that said, I am hoping to get out of the car for 2007. With the cost of custom shocks and how many tires we would eat, it would be less expensive to buy a 94-96 Miata R and run it in ES. As long as I can get the cash for the Miata, the Si will become a really expensive (as in $529 a month) daily driver.
PS-This is a really good thread. I just noticed it when paging around. Good info. I will keep my eye on it to see if I can contribute any more info.
I wish the best to you guys running nationally in HS next year. You are going to have a tough fight. I hope it turns out better than my attempt in GS.
We've actually replied to the same "Si in GS" thread on sccaforums.com and I remember reading a lot of your postings about your efforts. I unfortunately cannot make Kansas due to my profession (being a teacher September is a bad month to take a week off in esp. after being off for two months). But I did attend the Devens Tour and DC ProSolo and trophied in both (2nd and 3rd, respectively). So sorry if I offended you, but the non-Si is doing a better job in HS than the Si is in GS and I think Greg will back me up... Actually ask him if he'll be contesting the car in that class again this year.
As for the ES Miata idea, a lot of people are doing that and I may co-drive with my friend who has gone the same route at the Devens Tour or Finger Lakes ProSolo if HS is not a well subscribed class... The earlier Miatas are dirt cheap now and they have a proven track record in autocrossing. Good luck with that.
Why not go down to a 40 offset to get as much clearance and widen the track as much as possible. And acutally you could use the 47 in the rear to try to help the rear come around as much as possible.
We will be using a 1/4" spacer in the front which brings the net offset to 41ish. The 47 offset wheel came about because we (Robert w/ Blackwatch Racing and myself) wanted to have a wheel that could be legal for the Civic, the RSXs and the Mazda 3. The 3 has a 52.5 offset on it's stock wheel. Blackwatch is getting 10 sets of these wheels (I'm getting two of them) and Robert wants to maximize the sales potential for the wheels.
I might of missed this you may be running a regular Civic, but you said that you were going to run 16" wheel? Can you do that in an Si?
Are you guys able to change the front camber much? And if you are you using the Crash bolts? I have a new shop here that will do my alignment for $60. So I wanted to installed the crash bolts and get the max camber I could out of them. What toe setting are you running on the car typically? I running on all seasons right now until I trash them. This April I will be moving back to the Mainland and will be racing up at Portland international raceway and possibly down in Eugene as well depending on events and what I can make it to.
Any one in here from that area? I would like to know a few people there before I show up on the first day, always nice to already have some one there to point you in the right direction.
Also I have one of the first Helm manuals that came out so I don't know if its in there or not but is the HFP suspension "legal" for G Stock?
I might of missed this you may be running a regular Civic, but you said that you were going to run 16" wheel? Can you do that in an Si?
No in Stock, you MUST run the OEM sized wheel with an allowance of 1/4" for backspacing. My LX Coupe has 16x6.5" wheels, the Si has 17x7" wheels. That's what we're stuck with.
Are you guys able to change the front camber much? And if you are you using the Crash bolts?
No and yes, but the bolts aren't giving much more than 1/2 degree.
What toe setting are you running on the car typically?
That's a secret. Gotta have something to keep an edge over my competition, right?
Is the HFP suspension "legal" for G Stock?
The custom struts and shocks the kit offers ARE legal, but the springs are NOT.
Ok thanks for the help, I guess I will have to try and read up on the toe issue and see what I can find.
I am guessing that if I was going to go though the trouble of getting different shocks I would want to go with some thing better than the HFP. I will have to do some looking and see what I can find. I would like to try and be competitive in the G stock class for awhile before I move up or change the car much. I know its not the best car for Auto X but I have a lot of fun with it.
Any time people ride with me in the fun runs they are always impressed by what the car can do in its stock form.
Ok thanks for the help, I guess I will have to try and read up on the toe issue and see what I can find.
I am guessing that if I was going to go though the trouble of getting different shocks I would want to go with some thing better than the HFP. I will have to do some looking and see what I can find. I would like to try and be competitive in the G stock class for awhile before I move up or change the car much. I know its not the best car for Auto X but I have a lot of fun with it.
Any time people ride with me in the fun runs they are always impressed by what the car can do in its stock form.
Remember that toe can be a tire eater. That being said, toe out on both ends will help the car.
The Koni part numbers are up for the 8th gen Civics. They are:
2100 4065 for the FSD kit (front and rear)
8741 1502(L/R)SPORT for the yellow front struts
8041 1359SPORT for the yellow rear shocks
Problem is, they won't be out until summer. I'd wait if I were you.
I also get good impressions from others who drive my car regarding the car in stock form. But remember, the Mini's we are going against are great cars as well.
Yeah I have nothing against the mini I was looking at them before my wife happened to be at the dealer when my Si drove in. It was the first on in the state, and I had not driven a mini yet. I got in the Si and didn't want to get out.
I dont have any problem waiting, I still have a lot of driving skill to learn before I am competent enough for shocks and struts to make much change.
I was told that a little toe out in the back helps at high speeds, i.e. freeway driving. how much before it really starts to eat up your tires. My car is mostly a track car, but when I move back to the main land I think that for the first few months I am going to have to drive it to the auto-x events 150 to 200 miles away. So that would eat up some tires.
I'm a Hawk guy, but for double duty, I would stick with the HPS. If your car was a more dedicated auto-xer, I would say the HP+.
The stock brakes are so much better on my 07 LX than my 89 Si STS car. I will however be upgrading to HPS pads on the front. They don't have anything for the rear drums.
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