New springs but how stiff?

[midnight87]

So I've been reading all the posts by Mario and all the other peps so let's get 2 it I have a friend at S T suspention technique in sanger CA so let's say I could get him 2 make a custom set 4 us but how stiff should they be done 4 a good auto cross car?

[honda93]

Originally Posted by midnight87

So I've been reading all the posts by Mario and all the other peps so let's get 2 it I have a friend at S T suspention technique in sanger CA so let's say I could get him 2 make a custom set 4 us but how stiff should they be done 4 a good auto cross car?

Ummm... You could use Hypercoils or Eibach race springs (ERS). I prefer Hypercoils because they have something like a 2% variation in rate from spring to spring... I ran them on my old 1993 Civic autocrosser with great success.

Use them in conjunction with Ground Control sleeves and you're done.

http://www.hypercoils.com/

Frankly, I'd run 600# springs up front and 800# springs out back for STX duty. Go to 800# up front and 1000# out back for DSP or SM duty where you can run on R-compound tires.

Anthony "Mario" Crea
NNJR-SCCA

[midnight87]

Thanks Mario 4the info I have eibach sport springs I just need 2 get the inserts 4 the rear shocks and the progress rear bar its going 2 be my first season next year TNX again

[Solo2EG]

If next year's going to be your first season in Auto-X I'd strongly recommend running in one of the stock classes. There are many things to learn before prepping your car.

Just my 2 cents anyway...


edit: I guess it's too late for that if you already have springs, I was the same, my car had been lowered for years before I discovered Auto-X.

[Highrev1]

Originally Posted by honda93

Frankly, I'd run 600# springs up front and 800# springs out back for STX duty. Go to 800# up front and 1000# out back for DSP or SM duty where you can run on R-compound tires.

Anthony "Mario" Crea
NNJR-SCCA

TONY why such a high rate?? That seems Quite high. I think that a lower rate would be better, especially cause in those classes camber can be had, and you could in theory get a nice WIDE tire.

[honda93]

Originally Posted by Highrev1

TONY why such a high rate?? That seems Quite high. I think that a lower rate would be better, especially cause in those classes camber can be had, and you could in theory get a nice WIDE tire.

Because I learned a lot of lessons regarding what it takes for a FWD car to be competitive (suspension-wise) with the 1993 Civic in FSP and later in SM because I never spent money on developing the motors as per the rules... All my motors were technically Stock or Street Touring legal even though I could have gone much crazier in Street Prepared and totally apeshi_ in Street Mod.

The simple answer regarding why I'd run stiff springs is that those are "race car" rates... In other words, I'd LOVE to hear what rates and shock setup the HART guys are running on that EP Civic, you know, that silver one. http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...3&q=2006+civic

Frankly, since I could fit 15" wheels on my LX due to the smaller brakes, I'd be running 9.5" wide wheels and those tasty 275/35/15 Hoo$iers.

I truly feel I would be a formidable contender in FSP with this car if I were to go further... But we'll never know since I'm not moving beyond Stock.

Anthony "Mario" Crea
NNJR-SCCA

[Highrev1]

I used to run 1000 Punders in my old Black SI. BUt that was a completly different suspension. Eitherway I think I would only run say 600 rear and 550 front if I were competting.....

[midnight87]

Yea its 2 late 4 the stock class 4 me I have most of the bolt ons engin wise. Know imma get spanked but all in the name of fun TNX 4 alll the advice

[Solo2EG]

The wheel rates are much different from 7th gen to 8th gen but I know we were running something like 800lb front and 2200 lb rear with a massive rear bar on our 7th gen car before we got it handling halfway decent.

Since we've modified our 8th gen cars with a full coilover rear we've totally changed the lever ratios it doesn't really translate but we run about a 100 lb spring rate difference from front to rear (depending on the track) so usually soomething like 800 lb fr and 900 lb rr (or 900 / 1000) but according to our team's suspension engineer, had we kept the original design we'd want that difference to be much higher to promote rotation (especially important in Auto-X) so I'd imagine no matter what rate you choose, you'd need to make it two or three hundred pounds higher in the rear.

I run 400 lb front and 500 lb rear on my 5th gen and really wish I had gone for 600 lb for the rear but I was told not to go over 500 lb for stock valved konis...

[Sirbelch]

I will run 450/525 f/r when i get my springs. I might go with a bigger difference for the track/auto x course.

[Highrev1]

I was conservative for you BELCH...Replacment springs are relativly inexpensive. If you want a different rate TELL ME

[Solo2EG]

I checked with our suspension engineer and due to the different lever ratios front to rear you might want to bump that rear rate a bit higher if you want to avoid the car's natural tendency to understeer. Tony's 600/800 suggestion sounds like a pretty decent starting point to me (still a lot softer than our race cars)

[Sirbelch]

Originally Posted by Highrev1

I was conservative for you BELCH...Replacment springs are relativly inexpensive. If you want a different rate TELL ME

I dooooooo recall me asking for 500/600 orginally but someone said something about suspension frequency or something. So I changed my rates.

I was just stating what rates I would be getting and that I could go stiffer when I get to racing.

[Sirbelch]

Originally Posted by Solo2EG

I checked with our suspension engineer and due to the different lever ratios front to rear you might want to bump that rear rate a bit higher if you want to avoid the car's natural tendency to understeer. Tony's 600/800 suggestion sounds like a pretty decent starting point to me (still a lot softer than our race cars)

Decent starting point for what? A street car, street/track, street/autox, track/street autox/street? I run 500/560 right now and its not to bad on the streets but it is nearing the limit, maybe at the 87% mark for as stiff as I would want to go.

[Solo2EG]

Really? and you don't find that it still understeers too much? I didn't read if you've autocrossed it yet? No need to go up on the front rate then but I'll bet you'll want more in the rear. And if it gets too much you could go down to 450 in the front like you said.

I don't even have my 8th gen yet but I'll be aiming for at least a 200-250 lb spring rate difference from front to rear. That's the joy of working with the guys who spent years designing and refining the suspension for the car (and then making it work for a racing application) By the time I get mine in the fall I'm hoping the Konis are sorted out and I can go with something in the 400fr/650rr range (assuming the koni valving can take it)

[Sirbelch]

If you have a field, I have a plow. It still pushes at those rates. I was just refering to the ride on the streets. If I make the rear damper as stiff as possible, the ride is really rough ( i have tein flex) but if it is at half stiff or less its not too bad at all. I haven't been autoxing yet. I'm using the winter to prep for next year.

[honda93]

Originally Posted by Solo2EG

I checked with our suspension engineer and due to the different lever ratios front to rear you might want to bump that rear rate a bit higher if you want to avoid the car's natural tendency to understeer. Tony's 600/800 suggestion sounds like a pretty decent starting point to me (still a lot softer than our race cars)

See, I know something!

Seriously though, my rates were considered for an autocross beast that is NOT destined to be a trailer queen but is on custom valved shocks. My rates are probably on the tail end of what's streetable for a car driven to and from events.

If you ever have a testing position open up on your team, please let me know. I would love to get an opportunity behind the wheel of a true road race car. I can play hookie from school!

Anthony "Mario" Crea
NNJR-SCCA

[midnight87]

I'm a lil confused on the rates how can I get 2 those 400 front and 600 rear is that just the springs or the shocks play a major part in getting there I have the sportlines should I get different springs? TNX I want 2 be the beast lol

[Sirbelch]

Spring rate is measured in pounds per inch and is not dependent on the shocks. For example a 400lbs/in spring needs 400 lbs of force to compress it one inch. Your sportlines are about 220 lbs/in. If you want these spring rates, you need some Ground Control springs or Hypercoil springs.

[midnight87]

TNX sirbelch its all clear 2 me now and TNX 2 all u others 4 the info