Had the chance to autocross an Si with the Tein SS...

honda93 · 10-17-2007, 11:19 PM

The car absolutely sucked!

Push, push, push.... The Teins were sprung too softly and underdamped. Horrible. I was almost a second quicker in my LX Coupe and I had tires that started to blister (or were damn close to blistering).

Even the owner (he's been autocrossing for 5 years off and on so he knows good from bad at this stage) admitted the car was better on the stock suspension components.

This car made a strong case for my Bilsteins because Koni is still months from getting products to market due to business-related issues. For all you Tein fans, you really need to reassess what you wasted your money on.

Anthony "Mario" Crea
NNJR-SCCA

Capt Canuck · 10-17-2007, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by honda93

For all you Tein fans, you really need to reassess what you wasted your money on.

It may be accurate, but still a tad harsh don't you think?

honda93 · 10-17-2007, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capt Canuck

It may be accurate, but still a tad harsh don't you think?

Not really. In the wrong hands (inexperienced drivers) this car could actually cause more accidents because the rates chosen by Tein are that poor that the car is significantly worse than stock.

The only reason most people buy Teins is for lowering purposes, but I want to let people know that pushing the car with such a setup isn't an improvement over stock... Hence why I posted this in the autocross forum in the first place.

Anthony "Mario" Crea
NNJR-SCCA

jocasti · 10-18-2007, 12:05 AM

wow, this is good information to know!

Skylinegtr06 · 10-18-2007, 12:09 AM

Hey Anthony have you happened to run a stock si? Whats your opinion on it?

honda93 · 10-19-2007, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skylinegtr06

Hey Anthony have you happened to run a stock si? Whats your opinion on it?

I've run the stock Si as well... FOR AUTOCROSSING PURPOSES ONLY, I am going to tell you where the Si excels compared to the LX:

*Electric power steering; while somewhat lacking in steering feel it doesn't bind up like the hydraulic system can in tight slaloms.

That's kinda it. Frankly the LX is a better car everywhere else. Sorry... But the Si has a heavier engine and trans and therefore front nose weight percentage over the LX coupled with shocks and springs that aren't that much stiffer than the LX which equals more understeer. Its powerband is super high up in the rev range, the car is probably as powerful as the LX in 80% of most autocross situations. Best part is the Si front struts and front bar work very well on my car however...

If only Honda would build a true Type R using a DX shell with all the Si's goodies (and then some like a more aggressive LSD) and if they could get the car under 2500 lbs I will put one in my driveway.

Anthony "Mario" Crea
NNJR-SCCA
NNJR-SCCA

***jdmEGO*** · 10-19-2007, 11:18 AM

I auto-x with my stock si and with sportline spring, I have to said the stock feel a lot better there a lil push, and with sportline there a lot more push then stock, I got 1 second faster in my stock setup

honda93 · 10-19-2007, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdmEGO

I auto-x with my stock si and with sportline spring, I have to said the stock feel a lot better there a lil push, and with sportline there a lot more push then stock, I got 1 second faster in my stock setup

That's because most aftermarket spring sets aren't that much stiffer than the OEM rates... Sorry to tell you all.

Lowering the car 1" takes an inch off of the strut or shocks range of travel making it easier for the car to really sit upon the bumpstop sooner. Doing so causes the wheel rate to become almost infinite, thereby making severe understeer (if the front is reached first) or severe oversteer (if the rear is reached first).

If I were going to modify a new Civic with an adjustable spring perch (coilover as everyone calls them) I would run 600# springs up front and 800# springs out back; all the while keeping the ride height no more than an inch lower than stock. I'd crush people that way.

A fellow autocrosser had this issue on his 2002 Z28... In the rear no less. Imagine drifting a 300hp car on freshly resurfaced ice, that's what happened shortly after corner entry. He ended up adding stiffer springs and raising the ride height about 1/2".

Anthony "Mario" Crea
NNJR-SCCA

Xtreme Thunder · 10-19-2007, 08:46 PM

I recently purchased a used set of Tein SS and have noticed a plusher ride, but does not handle like stock. I noticed more bounce around turns at higher posted speeds. Almost that it feels unstable. The spring rates on the Tein SS must be softer than stock and I hit the bump stop over certain bumps. It is fine for the street, and I belive that it is what it was intended for, matched with a conservative driver. I think the Tein Flex are more your trackable ready setup from Tein. Do I think the Tein SS are a bad product, no, it is just not the trackable setup from them.

lonelydriver · 10-19-2007, 09:16 PM

I thought Tein SS wasn't designed for track use but mainly for street use?? All show no go..

lonelydriver · 10-19-2007, 09:19 PM

Hey Mario, I'm always curious how your setup is since your class doesn't have any room for aftermarket parts.

RANGERSi07 · 10-19-2007, 09:19 PM

Thanks Anthony for the info really changed my whole view on coilovers I was about to buy for Auto-X

lonelydriver · 10-19-2007, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by honda93

If I were going to modify a new Civic with an adjustable spring perch (coilover as everyone calls them) I would run 600# springs up front and 800# springs out back

With that type of setup, you will need Flex and not the SS... I think..

e60.deluxe · 10-19-2007, 09:28 PM

some of these things confuse me...

Quote:

Originally Posted by honda93

Sorry... But the Si has a heavier engine and trans and therefore front nose weight percentage over the LX coupled with shocks and springs that aren't that much stiffer than the LX which equals more understeer.

Honda's website has listed the weight distribution of an LX Coupe as 60/40. an Si Coupe at 61/39. that makes no nose about 150lbs heavier but the percentage is more or less the same. the MINI Cooper S which you were saying was so good the other day has a distribution of about 66/34.

Quote:

Its powerband is super high up in the rev range, the car is probably as powerful as the LX in 80% of most autocross situations.

The Si makes roughly the same torque throughout the entire rev range, no less than about 125lb-feet or so of a amx of 135. the Vtecs' "dip and spike" of the torque (although no more than a 10lb-ft difference, really nothing) and the pitch change is throwing you off into thinking there was nothing before. you are sadly mistaken if you think an LX can touch an Si even in the lower RPMs. you should compare the dynos...

furthermore, idk why an "autocross situation" would not call for bein in the high revs; all the high end proper track cars powerbands are very close to the shape of the Si's with the max power right next to redline just missing the dip. most people seem to think that the Si falls short in the DD range.

Quote:

If only Honda would build a true Type R using a DX shell with all the Si's goodies (and then some like a more aggressive LSD) and if they could get the car under 2500 lbs I will put one in my driveway.

the DX is only lighter than an SI because of the Engine/Transmission and lack of AC. IIRC the body is the same.

squidmaster · 10-19-2007, 09:37 PM

My EK hatch was a beast at auto cross and all I had was intake and some ghetto exhaust with some friggin awesome ebay springs that were tight like a 6 year old girl. lol
but yeah
I haven't AutoX'd my Si yet but just from driving it around I can tell that for AutoX it would need way stiffer suspension even from the stock ones, so anything looser than that would be junk.

Capt Canuck · 10-19-2007, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by e60.deluxe

some of these things confuse me...

Quote:

If only Honda would build a true Type R using a DX shell with all the Si's goodies (and then some like a more aggressive LSD) and if they could get the car under 2500 lbs I will put one in my driveway.

the DX is only lighter than an SI because of the Engine/Transmission and lack of AC. IIRC the body is the same.

Ditto on this one, maybe a definition of "DX shell" and "Si's goodies" would help clarify? :-s

honda93 · 10-19-2007, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lonelydriver

Hey Mario, I'm always curious how your setup is since your class doesn't have any room for aftermarket parts.

True, according to the SCCA in Stock I am allowed to change shocks and front bar. Rear bar must be OEM and untouched, and the wheels must be the same OEM size as well.

Here goes, pretty simple but effective...

Front: Si Coupe (SVB) struts and Si front bar 28mm

Rear: Si Sedan (SNX) shocks (everyday) and my custom Bilsteins (for racing)

Alignment, toe out at all four corners

Quote:

Originally Posted by lonelydriver

With that type of setup, you will need Flex and not the SS... I think..

More like a custom valved Koni and Ground Control threaded perches with Hypercoil Springs (less manufacturing variation than Eibach).

Remember, Tein sucks. Sorry Tein fanbois.

Anthony "Mario" Crea
NNJR-SCCA

honda93 · 10-19-2007, 11:37 PM

e60.deluxe

Honda's website has listed the weight distribution of an LX Coupe as 60/40. an Si Coupe at 61/39. that makes no nose about 150lbs heavier but the percentage is more or less the same. the MINI Cooper S which you were saying was so good the other day has a distribution of about 66/34.

But the Cooper S has a wheelbase almost 1.5 feet shorter! That'll help rotation. And, 66/34 seems a little extreme, I'd say 62/38 may be more accurate for the MINI's as ALL of the engine sits ahead of the shock towers.

The Si makes roughly the same torque throughout the entire rev range, no less than about 125lb-feet or so of a amx of 135. the Vtecs' "dip and spike" of the torque (although no more than a 10lb-ft difference, really nothing) and the pitch change is throwing you off into thinking there was nothing before. you are sadly mistaken if you think an LX can touch an Si even in the lower RPMs. you should compare the dynos...

Post some because my dyno is broken. Better yet, go for a ride in an LX and an Si between 2000 and 4500 rpm in second gear on an autocross course. Also, the Cooper S has torque (both the supercharged and turbocharged cars)

furthermore, idk why an "autocross situation" would not call for bein in the high revs; all the high end proper track cars powerbands are very close to the shape of the Si's with the max power right next to redline just missing the dip. most people seem to think that the Si falls short in the DD range.

Man, if your courses are that big that you can scream around at the top of the rev range all day like you're on a road course, then I gotta move to CA and risk the earthquakes and smog! Again, I made my observations based on autocrosses. Not road courses. On a road course the Si had better spank me and extract all of its power. On the average, autocross course designers at both the local and National level, must limit a street car to about 65-70 because that would mean an open wheel car may be touching close to 90 in some cases. As a result, the turns are tighter and much more frequent (30 turns in a span of 3/4 of a mile for example). The Si sings above 6000 rpm. Many times, on the courses I've seen, by the time the Si comes onto full boil, it's time to slow down again. It's a lot like driving a 1986 911 Turbo... Nothing, nothing, nothing, then 4000 rpm comes and WHOOOSSSSHHHH... HOLYSHITMOTHERFUCKERTHISCARISTRYINGTOKILLME!!!!!!

Lastly, the Si can't hit 60 in second. It requires a time-wasting shift (even though it's minute, it is still a shift) to third on a larger course like a National course.

the DX is only lighter than an SI because of the Engine/Transmission and lack of AC. IIRC the body is the same.

Also no sunroof. That's at least 60 lbs with glass, motors, etc. way up on top of the EX and Si body shell that can help lower the cg if it were just steel like the DX and LX.

Anthony "Mario" Crea
NNJR-SCCA

honda93 · 10-19-2007, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capt Canuck

Ditto on this one, maybe a definition of "DX shell" and "Si's goodies" would help clarify? :-s

The Integra Type R had no sound deadening/matting and was based off the RS shell... All other models had sunroofs. Honda could use the DX/LX shell and spare the sound deadening stuff as well.

As for the goodies, the Si motor and trans with a more aggressive LSD. I'd put hotter cams and an ECU in it and call it a day. As for the suspension, I'd have custom Showas (Honda's OEM supplier) built with a true race valving, not some upgraded HFP unit like the Mugen kit is imho. I'd increase the srping rates by 50% in front and 75% in the rear and pair it with a 22mm rear bar. I'd make AC and a radio optional and kill the side airbags in the seats by running something very similar to the delSol seats in design, simplicity and weight.

That's my Type R and I'd gladly spend $25,000 for one.

Anthony "Mario" Crea
NNJR-SCCA

***Highrev1*** · 10-19-2007, 11:59 PM

I had my SI FULLY prepped for GS class. TOny had his car in HS, he was NOT far behind

Really made my penis shrink

THe point I am making is that the LX is DEF an over acheiver in HS. Def. could be the new car to beat for HS. Tony is the lead instructor for NNJ SCCA, granted I am still a novice but from competing against him in a seperate class I would say the LX could easily give an SI a run for the money in an AUTOx depending on the cours.

TOny Everything in this post is a big

People "in the know" know what you are saying the fan boi's can complain all they want. I mean no offense to anyone but if you really want to handle better get more seat time that is the point of all of this. TOny has ALOT of seat time and that is what helps make him such an excellent judge of charecter in a suspenison

10-17-2007, 11:19 PM	#1 (permalink)
honda93 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Property Tax Hell... NJ Age: 34 Posts: 892 iTrader: 2 / 100%	Had the chance to autocross an Si with the Tein SS... The car absolutely sucked! Push, push, push.... The Teins were sprung too softly and underdamped. Horrible. I was almost a second quicker in my LX Coupe and I had tires that started to blister (or were damn close to blistering). Even the owner (he's been autocrossing for 5 years off and on so he knows good from bad at this stage) admitted the car was better on the stock suspension components. This car made a strong case for my Bilsteins because Koni is still months from getting products to market due to business-related issues. For all you Tein fans, you really need to reassess what you wasted your money on. Anthony "Mario" Crea NNJR-SCCA

10-19-2007, 11:37 PM	#18 (permalink)
honda93 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Property Tax Hell... NJ Age: 34 Posts: 892 iTrader: 2 / 100%	e60.deluxe Honda's website has listed the weight distribution of an LX Coupe as 60/40. an Si Coupe at 61/39. that makes no nose about 150lbs heavier but the percentage is more or less the same. the MINI Cooper S which you were saying was so good the other day has a distribution of about 66/34. But the Cooper S has a wheelbase almost 1.5 feet shorter! That'll help rotation. And, 66/34 seems a little extreme, I'd say 62/38 may be more accurate for the MINI's as ALL of the engine sits ahead of the shock towers. The Si makes roughly the same torque throughout the entire rev range, no less than about 125lb-feet or so of a amx of 135. the Vtecs' "dip and spike" of the torque (although no more than a 10lb-ft difference, really nothing) and the pitch change is throwing you off into thinking there was nothing before. you are sadly mistaken if you think an LX can touch an Si even in the lower RPMs. you should compare the dynos... Post some because my dyno is broken. Better yet, go for a ride in an LX and an Si between 2000 and 4500 rpm in second gear on an autocross course. Also, the Cooper S has torque (both the supercharged and turbocharged cars) furthermore, idk why an "autocross situation" would not call for bein in the high revs; all the high end proper track cars powerbands are very close to the shape of the Si's with the max power right next to redline just missing the dip. most people seem to think that the Si falls short in the DD range. Man, if your courses are that big that you can scream around at the top of the rev range all day like you're on a road course, then I gotta move to CA and risk the earthquakes and smog! Again, I made my observations based on autocrosses. Not road courses. On a road course the Si had better spank me and extract all of its power. On the average, autocross course designers at both the local and National level, must limit a street car to about 65-70 because that would mean an open wheel car may be touching close to 90 in some cases. As a result, the turns are tighter and much more frequent (30 turns in a span of 3/4 of a mile for example). The Si sings above 6000 rpm. Many times, on the courses I've seen, by the time the Si comes onto full boil, it's time to slow down again. It's a lot like driving a 1986 911 Turbo... Nothing, nothing, nothing, then 4000 rpm comes and WHOOOSSSSHHHH... HOLYSHITMOTHERFUCKERTHISCARISTRYINGTOKILLME!!!!!! Lastly, the Si can't hit 60 in second. It requires a time-wasting shift (even though it's minute, it is still a shift) to third on a larger course like a National course. the DX is only lighter than an SI because of the Engine/Transmission and lack of AC. IIRC the body is the same. Also no sunroof. That's at least 60 lbs with glass, motors, etc. way up on top of the EX and Si body shell that can help lower the cg if it were just steel like the DX and LX. Anthony "Mario" Crea NNJR-SCCA Last edited by honda93; 10-19-2007 at 11:56 PM.

10-19-2007, 11:59 PM	#20 (permalink)
*Highrev1* 8thcivic Sponsor Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 3,681 iTrader: 1 / 100%	I had my SI FULLY prepped for GS class. TOny had his car in HS, he was NOT far behind Really made my penis shrink THe point I am making is that the LX is DEF an over acheiver in HS. Def. could be the new car to beat for HS. Tony is the lead instructor for NNJ SCCA, granted I am still a novice but from competing against him in a seperate class I would say the LX could easily give an SI a run for the money in an AUTOx depending on the cours. TOny Everything in this post is a big People "in the know" know what you are saying the fan boi's can complain all they want. I mean no offense to anyone but if you really want to handle better get more seat time that is the point of all of this. TOny has ALOT of seat time and that is what helps make him such an excellent judge of charecter in a suspenison __________________ BUY MY CIVIC

10-18-2007, 12:05 AM	#4 (permalink)
jocasti Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: In yo couch, stealin yo change.. Posts: 1,266 iTrader: 3 / 100%	wow, this is good information to know!

10-18-2007, 12:09 AM	#5 (permalink)
Skylinegtr06 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Chula Vista SD Age: 18 Posts: 5,745 edwyn(male) iTrader: 1 / 100%	Hey Anthony have you happened to run a stock si? Whats your opinion on it?

10-19-2007, 11:18 AM	#7 (permalink)
*jdmEGO* SlaNtEyEz Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Charlotte, NC Age: 20 Posts: 2,743 d[-_-]b iTrader: 1 / 100%	I auto-x with my stock si and with sportline spring, I have to said the stock feel a lot better there a lil push, and with sportline there a lot more push then stock, I got 1 second faster in my stock setup

10-19-2007, 08:46 PM	#9 (permalink)
Xtreme Thunder Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Hyde Park, New York, U.S.A. Age: 24 Posts: 17,498 Joey iTrader: 5 / 100%	I recently purchased a used set of Tein SS and have noticed a plusher ride, but does not handle like stock. I noticed more bounce around turns at higher posted speeds. Almost that it feels unstable. The spring rates on the Tein SS must be softer than stock and I hit the bump stop over certain bumps. It is fine for the street, and I belive that it is what it was intended for, matched with a conservative driver. I think the Tein Flex are more your trackable ready setup from Tein. Do I think the Tein SS are a bad product, no, it is just not the trackable setup from them.

10-19-2007, 09:16 PM	#10 (permalink)
lonelydriver Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Richmond Posts: 948 iTrader: 1 / 100%	I thought Tein SS wasn't designed for track use but mainly for street use?? All show no go..

10-19-2007, 09:19 PM	#11 (permalink)
lonelydriver Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Richmond Posts: 948 iTrader: 1 / 100%	Hey Mario, I'm always curious how your setup is since your class doesn't have any room for aftermarket parts.

10-19-2007, 09:19 PM	#12 (permalink)
RANGERSi07 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: NC/CT/GA Posts: 500 iTrader: 0 / 0%	Thanks Anthony for the info really changed my whole view on coilovers I was about to buy for Auto-X

10-19-2007, 09:37 PM	#15 (permalink)
squidmaster Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 2,779 Jesse iTrader: 2 / 100%	My EK hatch was a beast at auto cross and all I had was intake and some ghetto exhaust with some friggin awesome ebay springs that were tight like a 6 year old girl. lol but yeah I haven't AutoX'd my Si yet but just from driving it around I can tell that for AutoX it would need way stiffer suspension even from the stock ones, so anything looser than that would be junk.