Had the chance to autocross an Si with the Tein SS...

[e60.deluxe]

But the Cooper S has a wheelbase almost 1.5 feet shorter! That'll help rotation. And, 66/34 seems a little extreme, I'd say 62/38 may be more accurate for the MINI's as ALL of the engine sits ahead of the shock towers.

uhh what about what the MINI specsheet says? look it up. and still doesnt explain LX vs. SI.

Post some because my dyno is broken. Better yet, go for a ride in an LX and an Si between 2000 and 4500 rpm in second gear on an autocross course. Also, the Cooper S has torque (both the supercharged and turbocharged cars)

thats an unfair comparison. the fact that the Si has a higher rev limit and higher final drive means that it should be in a higer RPM for the same MPH and if you are in roughly the same RPM for the same MPH your in the wrong gear in one of the cars. if the Si even had a 6700RPM redline youd be somewhat correct, but it doesnt.

Because the Si has a larger gear ratios/final drive than other cars like the LX and MINI, for a given output of the engine to the transmissions output to the wheels:

There is an increased a torque multiplication (larger diameter for gears) but in turn for increasing the effectiveness of the torque, the RPM of the wheels is reduced (less circumfurence for the input).

Thus, you need to be in a higher RPM to do the same thing. The reason other cars cant get this torque multiplication of the higher gear ratios is because they dont have the redline to sustain it. (remember reduction of wheel RPM with higher gearing)

here is an extreme example: can you say a motorcycle is slower than a car because it revs to 14,000 RPM but you only want to compare 0-6700? yes its more extreme, but its basically what you are doing here.

ever wonder why motorycycles can make 100+ HP for like 25-30lb-ft of torque at the crank?

i have a suggestion for you. get a piece of cardboard and cover up the tach in your LX and then get into an Si. if you shift based on what you want the car to do instead of shifting based on the RPM range, youll find the Si to be much faster than the LX.

Im not going to quote the last part but it seems that the gearing of the si is more suitibable for what you are doing. i guess i miss understood exactly what it is. man an LS7 Vette doesnt even need to shift at all in those courses if 60s all you need huh?

[Highrev1]

Your def. wrong gotta get out on an AUTOX course. Basically shift to second and leave it in second for MOST autox courses. The Si is very similar to the LX esp. if they have similar power below the curve as you have stated before.

[honda93]

[quote=e60.deluxe]uhh what about what the MINI specsheet says? look it up. and still doesnt explain LX vs. SI.

WOW. You were right about the F/R percentage, then again, their numbers are often a single average. Meaning, the MINI comes with 12 different spring rates based on options so as to get all the cars to handle pretty much the same regardless if it was a no-option car or loaded-to-the-gills. That being said, the base MINI sits around 2385~2450 on average amongst fellow competitors, yet the website lists 2550lbs. or so. So I'd be curious as to how they got that number.


ever wonder why motorycycles can make 100+ HP for like 25-30lb-ft of torque at the crank?

No, because the bike is like 1/5 the weight of the car. That means something more significant than anything else right there. Look at the success of the Elise relative to the Z06 and 911 GT3 in Super Stock (the SCCA's top Stock class). The Elise is almost 1200 ~ 1400 lbs. lighter at 1950 lbs versus 3200 lbs. minimum for the other two cars.

i have a suggestion for you. get a piece of cardboard and cover up the tach in your LX and then get into an Si. if you shift based on what you want the car to do instead of shifting based on the RPM range, youll find the Si to be much faster than the LX.

I have a suggestion for you, you and your friends in your college's FSAE (based on your use of mechanical engineering terminology I am assuming you're in school for something related?) go to an autocross and shift to second at the end of first and leave it there. Drive the remainder of the course in second which is how 99% of autocrossers do it and then report back to me.

Im not going to quote the last part but it seems that the gearing of the si is more suitibable for what you are doing. i guess i miss understood exactly what it is. man an LS7 Vette doesnt even need to shift at all in those courses if 60s all you need huh?

This last statement tells me that you probably have never autocrossed, yet you pass judgment like you have been doing it for 14 years like I have. Sorry, the Si gearing isn't all that, and when coupled with its other shortcomings explains why the Si isn't considered by drivers in GS to be a contender against a Cooper S. Yet, my LX in HS has proven it can run with the base MINI.

Anthony "Mario" Crea
NNJR-SCCA

[Sirbelch]

E60, you have got to be the most argumentative person on the forum. You seem to take things personally. Just relax, everything will be just fine.

Anyway, back at the ranch ...

The Tein SS does have a higer limit than stock but it is not a very friendly one. The SS has 340/390 lbs/in spring f/r. That is more than stock. Tony, did the Si owner say what the "settings" were at? Full soft is way worse than stock with lower limits and full stiff is faster than stock but scary and uncontrolible which makes it, in the end, worse than stock.

Now on to the flex's. 500/560 f/r. A little better dampers than SS, however they have the same feel at the limit. The car just kind of wallows left to right if a bump is there or not. I don't know if its kissing the bump stops and then rebounding and then compressing and kissing the bump stop over and over, but it is wired. One second the tires are making the "i'm near the limit sound" and the and the next, they just go quiet and then they are "i'm nearing the limit" again. I'm holding the wheel steady but the car is wobbling. The front end will slide and then the rear will slide and i just keeps going back and forth. Its really wierd. I would really have to recommend against getting Tein anything at this point. I've been on a Tein suspension of some sort for 18 months and none of it is how i dreamed it would be.

[honda93]

Originally Posted by e60.deluxe

man an LS7 Vette doesnt even need to shift at all in those courses if 60s all you need huh?

Technically yes... The C6 Z06 does 60+ in first which helps explain why it hits 60 in the high 3 second range. But to run an entire course in first, once you start factoring gearing multiplication and torque output per rpm, the car would be stupid to drive with any kind of finesse. Second gear will allow more subtle and smoother manipulation of the throttle (if such a thing is possible in a car with 505hp driving through 10' wide autocross gates) which is another large part of what makes autocrossing such a challenge.

Once I become a principal and start making some real dough, pay off grad school, and get the OK from the CFO (my wife) I'll let you know what that's like.

Anthony "Mario" Crea
NNJR-SCCA

[dt07Si]

I have the TEIN SS's, and I don't doubt that they are not the ideal setup for our cars but this all just goes back to the fact that there really isn't anything better currently available aside from having a set of Koni Yellows custom fabbed.

BTW I'll be at the Auto-X at Englishtown tomorrow, Idk if you'll be there but if so I guess I'll see you there. I won't be participating though, just watching and taking pics.

[Skylinegtr06]

Tony thanks for the wisdom, in Autox I believe that we don't really have an advantage and the skill of the driver and setup will decide the winner.

I can see how there is like a Exige vs GT3 argument here, like how on race courses with short straights and sharp corners the Exige will surely have the advantage but the GT3 having the advantage on tracks with longer straights.

So basically the Autox is like a "short course" and the Si cannot use its full potential since it cant be in the High revs at all times unless you constantly switch 1st and 2nd but thats not likely.

[Sirbelch]

Another thing that realized today is that braking stability sucks ass with the SS and Flex. The car is all over the road even if it is smooth pavement.
Another nother thing i realized today is that the SS/Flex are ok at the limit if you approach the limit slowly which doesn't happen in any auto x or race track situation.
So, in conclusion (again) don't drive the Flex or SS at anything above 7/10.

[friedk]

Awesome post.

I can see this post making LX guys happy and making Si guys feel a little insecure. lol

[I Vtec, do you?]

This sounds like a very weak justification thread of why the LX is a better car to get over the SI for autocrossing.

I'm sorry, but I own and LX AND an SI so I think my view on the cars are a tad bit better than yours. The LX is a very sloppy car - I can take turns at nearly double the speed in my SI than I could in my LX and still feel very stable. The LX has massive roll and feels very sloppy all around.

I'm also curious, WHY can't you be in the upper revs on the auto-x? What does having an auto-x track have to do with keeping the revs low? You must get an awful time in your LX if you're farting around on the track at 2k-4k rpms.

[friedk]

He's said many times you're in 2nd gear most of the time on autocross courses.

Do you plan on down shifting to first or something?

[I Vtec, do you?]

Originally Posted by friedk

He's said many times you're in 2nd gear most of the time on autocross courses.

Do you plan on down shifting to first or something?

If I was the one auto-xing, then I would just stay in whatever gear allowed me to be in the highest revs. Maybe I'm retarded and missing something, but why can't you do that?

[friedk]

You can't get any lower in 2nd gear.

[Sirbelch]

Originally Posted by I Vtec, do you?

If I was the one auto-xing, then I would just stay in whatever gear allowed me to be in the highest revs. Maybe I'm retarded and missing something, but why can't you do that?

On such a small, short course, down shifts and up shifts can't take up more time than bouncing of the rev limiter or falling out of VTEC. Some of those turns ar 20 mph and VTEC in 2nd starts at 35 mph. I don't see anyone down shifting in to first.

[Whocares05050]

Originally Posted by jocasti

wow, this is good information to know!

[MikeColangelo]

Ahhh, this thread brings me back to when I was autoxing my '94 Miata in Connecticut. Back then it was in CS. I'm not sure where they put that car these days.

When I finally blow ALL of my money doing road racing stuff, I'll go back to autox. I really do miss it sometimes.

[Solo2EG]

This is awesome! I have the same issue with all the guys here that think they "need" to be in VTEC all the time and are always downshifting to first with their b16s and b18s and stuff. Every time I kick their asses (by a long shot) with my stock sohc (no vtec) d15 by leaving it in 2nd and just driving smoothly they just shake their heads...

As much as I love the Si and can't wait to get mine, I know that there's no chance I'll ever be close to in the same planet to posting the same times in Auto-x as I can in my 4 door sub 100 whp EG Civic. No matter what suspension and engine mods I do to it!

[StinkyTofu]

I think the statement should be "the way the car was setup with the tein SS coilovers is worse than a stock si."

If you don't know how to tune your suspension, of course you're going to make the car handle worse than the Stock Si which was factory tuned by engineers. You can take $6,000 triple adjuster Motons and have the car handle worse than stock if its not set up correctly.

[Holland]

I raced my car in GS and gave up tell they move the mini... The lack of camber and weak diff just kill it.. I have a set up close to Mario but I was using a LX front bar just to help the car rotate...but the more it rotated the more the front diff sucked...After checking out what he did i went with the insert also and wow but I still cold not get cloose to the mini... The big problem is not the weight or if its a LX or SI.. the lack of camber just gets worse when you get the car to rotate.. now I have ran my car at the streets corse at willow springs and also buttonwillow... on a race track it is a fun and quick car to drive tell you hit the brakes... whole differnt problem... but autoXing is a whole dif thing.. The stock springs and shocks are great out of the box.. Honda hit a home run with them.. My GS set up is this... HFP front struts on stock si springs with a LX front bar and in the rear I run Koni Inserts and stock si springs and stock si rear bar.. I used forgeline wheels with a 205 in the rear and a 225 up front... Hoosher R6s with Porterfield R4 pads and motoul fluid..HFP muffler and k & n sotck filter other then that it was all stock ... I was one of the quicker cars but the mini is just to quick... Now My setup is HFP shocks and springs with a progress rear bar and endlinks..SPC front camber kit SK2 rear camber kit.. Its great on a race track and I am going to try it out in the st class for gome giggles next summer.. but my 2 cents here is the diff and lack of camber makes the car a bad autocross car in GS... if the mini was gone in GS.... whole diff story but tell then you cant beat one.. but with some brake upgrades the si is alot of fun on a small road corse or twisty road... but everyone with a 8th gen needs to get the progress rear bar asap.... its the way the car should come from the factory.. if koni yellows ever come out then I might just lower my car... But I have driven a SI with a tein setup and its to soft in the spring rates for sure but the valving in the shocks was not that bad but still not as good as stock... but they sell like hotcakes... so he is a good queston... what lowering springs are worth a crap? im thinking of giving progress or neuspeed race springs a try with my HFP shocks... any thoughts?

[Whocares05050]

I wish i had tracks around here to test the car in, and actually have some fun. whats something like that cost to run a car for the day?