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The Official HPDE / Track Thread

237K views 3K replies 131 participants last post by  otrtkennedy 
#1 · (Edited)
I've been noticing the AutoX thread lately and just noticed there was no official Track / HPDE threads, mostly threads from MikeJ that get a lot of attention. So I think this should be the official Track / HPDE talk and chat thread.

I'll attempt to post up any links I find here that relate to this thread so they're easily found.

Good Thread with a little chat and good recommendations.
http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/auto...ing-more-serious-into-racing-suggestions.html

Phenomenal Oil Thread, READ the thread from the Ferrari Forums!
http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/autocross-sanctioned-drag-racing/192582-racing-oil-clarify-learn.html

Our Brake Upgrade Options
http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/suspension-brakes/62478-brake-options.html

TSX Brake Swap
http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/suspension-brakes/140394-tsx-brake-swap-upgrade.html

FA5 brake ducts
http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/suspension-brakes/265794-fa5-brake-ducts.html

Speed Bleeders for Brakes
http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/do-y...utch-bleeding-speed-bleeder-installation.html

Good Suspension Thread (For serious suspension not junk coil overs)
http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/susp...pension-vs-koni-swift-springs-suspension.html

List of Coil-over options (I would add Both sets of Godspeed coil-overs to this list as well.)

http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/suspension-brakes/72054-coil-over-options-06-civic.html
Next I'll give a little info about myself and it would be cool if we could copy the AutoX thread and get little introductions on people.

Name: Alex
Cars: 2009 Civic Si (Just a progress sway bar on it), 1998 BMW M3 Sedan (Track Rat)
Info: This will be my second track season and will be my first with the Civic, last year I had the pleasure to drive at New Hampshire International Speedway, and Watkins Glen, in a number of different e36's.

So who are the other track rats on the forum?
 
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#106 ·
Okay so star spec wins again
I have the money but I'd rather put it in my bank or into other stuff on the car because I can run star specs on the street
These will be autox tires as well so R-S3's probably wont do nearly as well as the star spec
They work really well on light cars with double wishbone suspension and great camber curves.. not us
I want to run stock class autox for a while: koni all around, progress rsb, crash bolts

vf1si: do you think the 235 is worth the extra money over the 225? over the 215?
 
#116 ·
Yes. Unless comfort and rim protection are high on your priority list. The taller 45 sidewall will absorb impact better (from potholes etc.) than the 40. Otherwise, the 235/40 is lighter, wider, and doesn't mess with your speedo or gearing.


I thought Project Mu Club Racers were the **** until I tried Carbotechs XP-12.
I liked the Club Racers too...Haven't tried the Carbotechs but they were next on the list. I know you're the only one who'll appreciate this since we've both had our brake issues but when I pulled 1:27.9 at SoW CCW I was on BP10s...Yeah, 10s. They're Wilwoods Hawk HPS equivalent. I don't even know what to think anymore regarding brakes. Lol.
 
#107 ·
Hey guys - love the idea of this thread. I used to post a couple of years ago about track days, but not many people did them.

2008 Civic Si
K&N SRI
Vibrant Header w/ HFC <--planned
Hondata FlashPro <-- planned
Koni Sport + Neuspeed Sport/Progress Sport <-- planned, still deciding on springs
17x7 G-Games 77W w/ 225/45 NT01 (track)
17x7 wheels w/ 225/45 Hankook RS3 (AutoX) <--planned, Star Specs if I can't find the RS3
DBA 4000 rotors
Carbotech XP12/XP8
Brembo LCF600 fluid

I've been running completely stock since I got the car (except for brakes). This is the first year that I'm modifying it, hence all the <--planned tags.



Shameless plug: My buddy (MS3) and I run our own racing team, Liquid Dinosaur Racing. Check us out on Facebook and Youtube, and make sure you hit like!

We run with EMRA for Time Trials (Lime Rock Park, Summit Point, NJMP) and NYR-SCCA for Autocross.

Anybody have any experience with Neuspeed Sport or Progress Sport springs? My car is also a daily driver, so the 1.6" drop of the Neuspeeds scares me a little bit - and I figure the Progress Sport would be an improvement over stock.
 
#112 · (Edited)
Hey guys - love the idea of this thread. I used to post a couple of years ago about track days, but not many people did them.

2008 Civic Si
K&N SRI
Vibrant Header w/ HFC <--planned
Hondata FlashPro <-- planned
Koni Sport + Neuspeed Sport/Progress Sport <-- planned, still deciding on springs
17x7 G-Games 77W w/ 225/45 NT01 (track)
17x7 wheels w/ 225/45 Hankook RS3 (AutoX) <--planned, Star Specs if I can't find the RS3
DBA 4000 rotors
Carbotech XP12/XP8
Brembo LCF600 fluid

I've been running completely stock since I got the car (except for brakes). This is the first year that I'm modifying it, hence all the <--planned tags.

image


Shameless plug: My buddy (MS3) and I run our own racing team, Liquid Dinosaur Racing. Check us out on Facebook and Youtube, and make sure you hit like!

We run with EMRA for Time Trials (Lime Rock Park, Summit Point, NJMP) and NYR-SCCA for Autocross.

Anybody have any experience with Neuspeed Sport or Progress Sport springs? My car is also a daily driver, so the 1.6" drop of the Neuspeeds scares me a little bit - and I figure the Progress Sport would be an improvement over stock.
Check out the new swift spec-r. There is also ground control sleeves w/ custom linear rates, and you can set it at any height you'd like so that you would have no trouble DD.

How do you like the carbotechs? I have a friend who runs them on his M3 at homestead, PBIR, sebring, etc and loves them.
I was also thinking of running the brembo fluid, but its much more expensive than ATE and i figured if im paying that much, i might as well run castrol SRF. Do you have to change the LCF600 as much as motul or castrol?

I liked your page on facebook!
 
#108 ·
I just did the Neuspeed sports, and my car is still DD. Drop was right at 1.5". Stiffer for sure, but with the Koni yellows on full soft its very comfortable. I wasn't looking for slamming the car at all (could care less) but heard so many positive things about this particular spring/damper combo for performance driving that i had to do it, esp. since I wanted to reduce what I thought for me was too much body roll. Check out this thread for more info, opinions, etc.

http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/susp...ports-koni-neuspeed-sport-springs-review.html

Chris at Redshift is very informed, excellent service, pretty local to us (northern PA).
 
#109 ·
IMO, Progress Sports can be pretty low, also (lower than 1.3" and 1.2"). My exhaust got kind of banged up last summer, but I do have the Full Race 3", and it kind of sits low at some spots. I'll maybe get some pics once I get this car back together.

If you don't want low, the only real option is coilovers or HFP. The rest will vary.
 
#110 ·
Thanks for the feedback, guys. In the link, Gabo said:

I was initially concerned this suspension would be too harsh. I have a ten month old daughter whose comfort was important to me. On full soft this setup will outperform the stock suspension while still maintaining a level of comfort slightly stiffer than stock. I had my wife, daughter, mom and sister in the car and none of them notice the additional stiffness.
That's probably the best thing I can read about it. I'll be in a similar situation before long. Now I'll need to double check how much space is under the car when I enter my driveway.

And it looks like I'll be ordering from Redshift.

jrickerm, which group do you go to the tracks with?
 
#111 ·
Connecticut Autocross & Rally Team (CART) does a few track days each year at Lime Rock, and Pocono (N and S), sometimes Monticello (didn't see it on the schedule yet for 2012 though). We had 5 @ 20 min. sessions, plus time trials last fall at Lime Rock. In a monsoon, but still.
 
#129 ·
I had some success with carbotechs on my old miata, but on the civic I find they just do not last long. Which is weird, no one gets better reviews then carbotechs. I destroyed a set of XP10 or XP12 in one day, backing plate came out deformed in a crescent shape (like a bracket half "(" , Ive never seen a pad do that). I used to run RBF600, but honestly best $/value is Superblue, no point running anything higher boiling point. If you are cooking superblue, the issue is not your fluid, its your heat capacity and evacuation.

I prefer the Hawks DTC60s on the civic. Those will last two days if I take it somewhat easy and feel great.
 
#137 ·
You should be fine stock, just top it off, maybe check your filter just in case. From what I have read you should be good up to 8000 RPM. If you have hondata, dont go over stock redline during a corner! Check out the "When life gives you lemons, go k24" build thread. The kid threw a rod i think bc of 8600 RPM, stock oil pump, and the tail of the dragon/high g's (star specs). Now he has a K24.

I've also heard RSX oil pump somewhere, do a search I only remember reading it sorry no info on it

My first set of pads lasted a whole season (6 track days, 4-5 20min sessions each). Now that I'm getting fast and I'm trying to brake closer to lockup and deeper in the turn, I think I'll get 3-4 track days out of them.

That's an oil myth - you can switch synthetics as you wish.



I just make sure everything is topped off and I cross my fingers
Okay that's good thanks
Oh nice, what would you recommend? I starting to have a feeling that royal purple wasnt the best choice.
I burn about a quart/5k, is this normal?
 
#143 ·
Car is has a rollbar, seat and harness. Everything else is stock. As for time on track, probably 5, 20 minute sessions. The track is notoriously hard on brakes, my car has been shown to go into turn one with rotors glowing red.

Don't mean to sound ****y, but if you are lasting more than 3 track days, on stock calipers/discs you are probably not driving fast enough.
 
#149 · (Edited)
hes on tls brembos and tl rotors. Either way, i dont know anyone killing carbotechs that quick at track days. Jason is quite fast and i'm positive hes hitting the brakes to the point where abs is being activated. S2000 have different weight than us, but i see almost all s2k guys running carbotechs and none of them have mentioned them going out in one track day. minimum 3.

I'm on dc5 brembo with s2k rotors and project mu club racers in front. i think theres four track days on them and they still have a good 40/50% pad left. I think i'm a bit of a ***** on the brakes since i dont have abs. At the same time others who have gone passenger with me have told me my braking is where it should be. I have to do a quick bleed on my rbf600 after most run sessions as well. No ducting at the moment :(

Personally aside from very high powered cars, i never heard of a track pad being killed in one hpde day. Maybe its the stock setup you have ?
 
#147 ·
OK, that looks interesting. Anyone know if it actually helps?

What do you mean by 50/50 mix? See my post above on oil. I would run a fully synthetic, but also be selective about which one. Mobil 1 0w-40 is supposed to be a good choice, as are some others marked as "European formula"
 
#150 ·
S2000's are not only lighter, but they also have a more stiff suspension as well as better oem ducting. Don't forget the static weight distribution. Nearly 50/50 for S2k and 60/40 for the civic, that plays a huge role. The civic is heavier and softer, therefore it experiences more weight transfer and thus experiences not only more load on the front brakes, but has trouble evacuating the heat after prolonged sessions. The temporary ducting I put on makes a big difference, but the heat capacity is still insufficient.

That is why I mentioned that I am surprised Im having no success with the carbotechs...I know they are a good pad and I have loved them on other cars.

Also, the fact that you are engaging ABS has no merit. Not only is that tire dependent, but also the ABS on our cars is complete utter crap and shows its economy roots. I have done some testing and with threshold braking you can achieve much shorter distances. I welcome for you to run some data acquisition and verify this. A Bosch or Porsche ABS system would be a whole different matter.

As well, I dont know if you run data, but a butt dyno comment on braking means very little. Perception is particularly skewed as a passenger.
 
#153 ·
Thank you for uttering plenty of information that is already commonly known about the s2k. I simply gave off a car that many friends drive and therefor i hear plenty about the setups they run.

Right now you're making assumptions based on almost no reason.

As for information, only time i had datalogging was during a rainy day back in nov. Now feel free to provide your own, i'm curious how it compare's to Jason's. Making a comment of "not braking hard enough" based on almost nothing is a rather bold statement.
 
#163 ·
Holy **** lol, what suspension setup are you running?

Guys need some advise, coming up on having saved enough to go two routes with the car.

Option A: HFP Suspension (Either a used sedan version or a new coupe version from ebay), then I'd put a set of stop tech performance pads up front.

Option B: Acura TSX brake upgrade up front, reman calipers, brembo blanks, and stop tech performance pads as well.

As of now I'm thinking option A, what do you guys think?
You're in the same boat as me!
Keep in mind, all koni's are supposedly 20% starting march 1st meaning they would cost ~480$
Or, go with the coupe suspension on ebay and buy the rear konis for ~240$

I say if you're planning on tracking it soon.. brakes first. If not, HFP suspension.
 
#154 ·
and excuse me, what do you mean by threshold braking? Do you not have ABS?

Its basically impossible to do your own threshold braking when there is an ABS system. The ABS will be put to use as soon as it feels a slight amount of slip. Your foot is not going to make much difference once the ABS has already come into play.

If you are without ABS then okay it makes more sense. I have never tracked with ABS due to a prior accident, its a lot different than with ABS. Threshold braking is the only way you brake on a non abs equipped car lol. :x
 
#156 · (Edited)
Uh oh, ayodog got his panties in a bunch.

Lets clear some things up:

I dont run superblue, I run rbf600. I am just telling you the marginal difference in performance is not worth the much higher cost. I don't boil my fluid, because as soon as my braking distances start increasing I run a couple cool down laps. My pedal is still ****** for the rest of the day.

I know why im overheating, I know what I can do about it. Im just helping people who have not gone down this path yet.

Its not a full cage, its an autopower rollbar...but! Yes its not an ideal setup and heavier than stock. The car is time trialed, autocrossed, hillclimbed so its built with basic safety to allow me maximum seat time in as many venues as possible. I have not changed the brakes because I like being able to go to GS for autox by removing seat and stay in SS2 for time trials. Always on street tires (hoosiers for autox), although this year the time trials will be on V710.

If you are not limited by class, I would say the brakes are your first priority. They are by far the weakest link on this car. And nothing you can do to the stock calipers and discs will make them last a proper flogging.

You should be trailbraking everywhere. It is simply faster, I trailbrake in autocross and that has more and faster transitions than any track will.

Now for our Mr.s2kFRIENDS

You mentioned the s2ks, I explained why they do not suffer the same problems as us. You compared apples to oranges, I explained you the difference between the fruits. If you considered all those known facts, then you wouldnt have asked the stupid question. Capiche?

I am not making unfounded assumptions, because I am restating simple facts, that are well known by experienced drivers who have tracked the civics in anger. The brakes are weak, no amount of band-aids will allow them to survive a 20 minute session on a fast track without babying them. Im not trying to say I am a driving hero, but if you can't even overwork the weakest part of the car, then I can assure you that you are not going fast enough. Stifle your pride, get more seat time and instruction and you will get there. We all had to start from zero.

I do have ABS, the car is literally, basically stock. Im telling you, threshold braking = braking with maximum force before lockup. I gurantee you, 110%, that anybody with some decent seat time will be able to outperform the civic "ABS" braking. I said it, vf1si also just did. Every ABS is different. Its different in sampling frequency, its different in sensors, its different in modulation and brake application. Our ABS is not optimized for performance, its made to save stupid kids from spinning the car in rain. A "Bosch ABS" system would be an example of a race ABS system optimized to outperform any driver.

Hence why I said, because I suspected you would not believe me, go test out the data for yourself. Numbers dont lie. Proper threshold braking will result in a shorter stopping distance than engaging the ABS. Asking for my data is cute, too bad we don't run the same track or setup so its a moot and stupid challenge.

Anyways;

My track:
Mission Raceway - http://www.sccbc.net/ (Look up track facts on the left)

Something for your viewing pleasure:
Mission Raceway w/2008 Honda Civic Si - YouTube

Good Luck.
 
#193 · (Edited)
Uh oh, ayodog got his panties in a bunch.

Lets clear some things up:

I dont run superblue, I run rbf600. I am just telling you the marginal difference in performance is not worth the much higher cost. I don't boil my fluid, because as soon as my braking distances start increasing I run a couple cool down laps. My pedal is still ****** for the rest of the day.

I know why im overheating, I know what I can do about it. Im just helping people who have not gone down this path yet.

Its not a full cage, its an autopower rollbar...but! Yes its not an ideal setup and heavier than stock. The car is time trialed, autocrossed, hillclimbed so its built with basic safety to allow me maximum seat time in as many venues as possible. I have not changed the brakes because I like being able to go to GS for autox by removing seat and stay in SS2 for time trials. Always on street tires (hoosiers for autox), although this year the time trials will be on V710.

If you are not limited by class, I would say the brakes are your first priority. They are by far the weakest link on this car. And nothing you can do to the stock calipers and discs will make them last a proper flogging.

You should be trailbraking everywhere. It is simply faster, I trailbrake in autocross and that has more and faster transitions than any track will.

Now for our Mr.s2kFRIENDS

You mentioned the s2ks, I explained why they do not suffer the same problems as us. You compared apples to oranges, I explained you the difference between the fruits. If you considered all those known facts, then you wouldnt have asked the stupid question. Capiche?

I am not making unfounded assumptions, because I am restating simple facts, that are well known by experienced drivers who have tracked the civics in anger. The brakes are weak, no amount of band-aids will allow them to survive a 20 minute session on a fast track without babying them. Im not trying to say I am a driving hero, but if you can't even overwork the weakest part of the car, then I can assure you that you are not going fast enough. Stifle your pride, get more seat time and instruction and you will get there. We all had to start from zero.

I do have ABS, the car is literally, basically stock. Im telling you, threshold braking = braking with maximum force before lockup. I gurantee you, 110%, that anybody with some decent seat time will be able to outperform the civic "ABS" braking. I said it, vf1si also just did. Every ABS is different. Its different in sampling frequency, its different in sensors, its different in modulation and brake application. Our ABS is not optimized for performance, its made to save stupid kids from spinning the car in rain. A "Bosch ABS" system would be an example of a race ABS system optimized to outperform any driver.

Hence why I said, because I suspected you would not believe me, go test out the data for yourself. Numbers dont lie. Proper threshold braking will result in a shorter stopping distance than engaging the ABS. Asking for my data is cute, too bad we don't run the same track or setup so its a moot and stupid challenge.

Anyways;

My track:
Mission Raceway - The Sports Car Club of British Columbia Official Website (SCCBC) (Look up track facts on the left)

Something for your viewing pleasure:
Mission Raceway w/2008 Honda Civic Si - YouTube

Good Luck.
you said you were using street tires for TT, just curious what wheel sizes, and tires sizes are you using? also specifically which model street tires, and with that setup were you still going through DTC 60s in a track weekend? Or is it the 710s that make you go through pads quickly?

Yep, no worries, peace be with you. I was pissy from exams, sorry about that. <3

I would recommend brakes over anything else as a priority. Not to mention, I have not seen the shock dynos for the HFP, but I suspect they are not very good. In fact most aftermarket coilovers are complete garbage. Buddy Clubs, Tein, Ksport...etc. Also linear springs >> progressive springs.

Read this for some education on shocks: Autocross to Win (DGs Autocross Secrets) - Shocks

However, I would recommend modifications that allow you to drive at the limit more consistently. Shocks are not part of this. Brakes that last are.

The stock suspension is honestly not that bad. Question is do you want to go faster because you bought something or because you learned how to drive faster? I think seat time, and plenty of it is more important than anything if you have aspirations to become a better driver. I dont have a problem with people slamming their cars, or people who like to have fun with boost. But if becoming a better, faster and safer driver are your only interests, then listen up!

Put it this way, unless you can consistently lap within 0.5s at 90-97% pace (pushing it), for the entire session, there is no point to upgrade anything. It makes no sense, you probably don't have the experience to feel the changes you would have made anyways.

Personally, I think the following are crucial and will improve your performance significantly and are the best investment if you are interested in becoming a better driver:

Good brakes (700-3000$)
-These are seriously lacking on our cars. We simply do not have enough heat capacity = THEY ARE TOO SMALL. Nothing you will do to the stock brakes will be enough. You need to upgrade this if you are not restricted by class. You should be able to get on the brakes hard, every time, for 20 minutes and have no lack of confidence in them.
-Ducting helps, for the most temporary solution you can run them from the bottom of the car, right to the disc. Loop the brake lines over them and they will be held in place and move with your wheel. Therefore always exposing your rotors to convection which removes heat.

Data Aquisition (500$-5000$)
-Eventually you will hit a wall in your development. You wont be able to go faster and you wont understand why. This can help you figure it out. Especially if you have a codriver or can have someone faster take the car out and compare the data. See what they are doing to go faster than you.
-This also allows you to test theories and modifications. Does that shock setting really allow you to go faster, and where? Maybe there is no change in laptime but it allows you to go faster in some sections and slower in others. This can give you ideas what to change to go faster.
-There is a lot of misinformation and false ideas on the internet. A lot of people preach them. Take everything with a grain of salt, test it yourself if it seems plausible and the numbers wont lie.
-I recently moved from a Traqmate to a AiM Solo DL. I HIGHLY recommend this unit. Its cheap for what it does, and the OBD2 connection is super cool for our cars. It records everything your ECU does, most systems you have to run a separate sensor for each point of data you want. This works with any car with an OBD2, and they are only getting better. As cars get more electronic, they record and monitor more and more. Many cars record throttle position, brake, steering angle, oil pressure, boost...etc All this information is available to you through this system. Best Data Acquisition unit for less than 2000$ IMO.

A proper, fixed back, FIA Race Seat and 6 point Harness (about 1000$)
-My favorite upgrade to my car. I bough a cheap 200$ older Sabelt race seat.
-It has shot my driving enjoyment through the roof. I didnt realize how much I was moving in my seat and bracing myself. Not only does this send mixed signals about feedback to your car, it makes it hard to drive consistently
-Made it easier to heel and toe
-6 point harness is a must. Takata is overpriced. Get Omp, Sabelt, Sparco..etc
-Do not, do not, do not buy one off the net. No amount of measurements will give you the proper idea of fit. Go to a local race shop, test fit each seat in your price range and buy the best fit.
-Its probably lighter
-Good seats: OMP, Recaro, Sparco, Sabelt, Cobra...
-Bad Seats: Non-FIA, Buddy Club...etc.

Other
-I think the engine dampener is a good idea. It helps the shifting and launching of the car. I dont use one, but its a cheap upgrade that works really well.
-Power? You dont really need it unless it has a purpose. Adding forced induction introduces many more stresses and failure points. Keep it simple with bolt ons, a reflash and a shorter final drive.
-Buy good quality shocks. If you can't get a dyno graph, they are not worth it. 3600 adjustment clicks means nothing. I saw a shock dyno of an old Ksports coil, the full range of 36 clicks made almost no difference, less than 2 clicks on a koni
-If you do have shocks or camber plates, please for god's sake get a proper race alignment. Camber does not kill tires, toe does. My friend runs almost -4deg on his e36
-Aero is good, if its functional and tested for optimal setup. A wing and splitter will probably reduce your time more on a fast track then a full set of bolt ons.

Finally, consider this, these cars are not the greatest sports cars. They are a damn good car for the value, I think the 8th gen may be the last great civic. Its a great DD, its a fun car for spirited driving and autocross. Its not an ideal track car. So:

I never understood why racecar drivers always have such boring street cars. A RS4 or even *gasp* A4? Stock? Pshhhh. An M5? Isnt that too soft? AUTOMATIC?! It should at least have no suspension, aero work and a rollcage... Take some weight out, put in a race seat... and you can drive your daily to the track, and come home. Then I tried it. It really is overrated to destroy a perfectly compliant and stock daily in order to make it faster for the 1% of its life that it will be tracked. The seat hurts your back for extended drives, the car is loud, uncomfortable and not that fun to drive on a daily basis, what it does for 99% of its life. Now I understand. The way to go, if at all possible, is to have your race car and a street car.

Therefore, a nearly stock daily is not a bad thing at all. As long as the car is comfortable, decently quick (for us that appreciate that) and can still take a lap or two of flogging, it should be a good car. e39 M5 comes to mind, the boss 302 makes me wonder...

So the ideal situation is to really have a dedicated track tool. On a budget? A 1st gen miata is the perfect driver tool. For the price of a set of wheels and coilovers you can get the car and make it track ready. The consumables are cheaper, replacement parts are cheaper and its easier on everything. It pays for itself pretty quick. Not to mention you have the option for walking away from a wreck. You can buy a full IT race car, turnkey for less than 5k$.

Cheers.
i read that article too, a bit dated now but still good info
 
#157 ·
I dunno what your specific classing restrictions allow you to do to your brakes but is it just that you have to run the stock brake rotor diameter and stock caliper? If so, have you tried cryo treating pad, rotor, and caliper? There is also RBF660 which has a higher boiling point for flogged stock set ups.
 
#158 · (Edited)
my panties are not in a bunch. Why are you making assumptions constantly?

Yes our braking is a weak point, i was simply mystified about how you can kill a dedicated track pad in one track day. It is not something i have seen from any 8th civic driver.

And i ask about threshold because how can you cause there to be a slight amount of slip ( which is threshold braking ) when there is stock abs? Will abs not kick in under slight slip?

Almost every fast civic i see in socal has some sort of bigger brake setup. Maybe this explains the pads not being killed so quickly, or maybe its also that they all have aftermarket suspension setups that dont have as much dive built into them as the stock setup.

Anyways, i'm not here to pick a fight, i'm aware you know your car and mechanics well. I think we just had a bit of miscommunication.
 
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