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The Official HPDE / Track Thread

237K views 3K replies 131 participants last post by  otrtkennedy 
#1 · (Edited)
I've been noticing the AutoX thread lately and just noticed there was no official Track / HPDE threads, mostly threads from MikeJ that get a lot of attention. So I think this should be the official Track / HPDE talk and chat thread.

I'll attempt to post up any links I find here that relate to this thread so they're easily found.

Good Thread with a little chat and good recommendations.
http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/auto...ing-more-serious-into-racing-suggestions.html

Phenomenal Oil Thread, READ the thread from the Ferrari Forums!
http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/autocross-sanctioned-drag-racing/192582-racing-oil-clarify-learn.html

Our Brake Upgrade Options
http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/suspension-brakes/62478-brake-options.html

TSX Brake Swap
http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/suspension-brakes/140394-tsx-brake-swap-upgrade.html

FA5 brake ducts
http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/suspension-brakes/265794-fa5-brake-ducts.html

Speed Bleeders for Brakes
http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/do-y...utch-bleeding-speed-bleeder-installation.html

Good Suspension Thread (For serious suspension not junk coil overs)
http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/susp...pension-vs-koni-swift-springs-suspension.html

List of Coil-over options (I would add Both sets of Godspeed coil-overs to this list as well.)

http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/suspension-brakes/72054-coil-over-options-06-civic.html
Next I'll give a little info about myself and it would be cool if we could copy the AutoX thread and get little introductions on people.

Name: Alex
Cars: 2009 Civic Si (Just a progress sway bar on it), 1998 BMW M3 Sedan (Track Rat)
Info: This will be my second track season and will be my first with the Civic, last year I had the pleasure to drive at New Hampshire International Speedway, and Watkins Glen, in a number of different e36's.

So who are the other track rats on the forum?
 
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#747 ·
This is a two day HPDE and I have one set of HAWK Blues on hand (brand new) I know I'm going to cook the brakes but will I need another set for the second day? Also, rotors have 36k on them, already on my 2nd set of stock pads (just daily and backroad driving) should I be okay on that set?
It really depends on how hard you drive. As I got better and better, I've also become a lot faster and the pads that used to lask okay no longer will last a day. A really easy way to manage brake temps is to not max out on the straights... anyone can drive in a straight line, right? Just coast once you hit 100mph (keep an eye on drivers behind you not expecting a slow-down). Personally, I just tried the Hawk DTC-60's and I had an awesome time with them. I expect to get 6-8 track days out of them.

I know the blues are hard on rotors... not a bad idea to buy a new set of rotors for whenever you do kill the old ones.

What event are you going to btw?
-Mike
 
#748 ·
I completely understand it depends on how hard you drive the car. I'm worried that I'm already over the limit of the calipers.

I will definitely back off on the straights to cool them down, I'm sure I'll be letting off anyways to let cars pass (There's usually a number of high powered cars out there.)

I was going to pull the trigger on the 60s but the price was just killer and I need new tires and I'm still dumping money into my M3.

Should I get brembo blanks or is there anything cheaper out there that won't warp?

Mike, don't you have TSX upgrade? I'm still stock.... Which is why I'm worried.

I cooked the stock pads and super blue on my M3 two track days ago (Now it's a beast with PFC-01s, star specs, coil overs and fixed backed seats).

I'll be at Watkins Glen with PheonixCMR for the weekend July 30th and 31st. The Glen is awesome and surprisingly easy on tires compared to other tracks.

I was going to pull the trigger a set of DC5/R's but decided against it since brake are no good without tires......
 
#751 ·
I just get the cheap-o Duralast blanks at Autozone. Spend the money saved on a set of DTC-60's...
Yup, any rotor will warp if not cooled properly (gentle cool-down lap, come to a stop using your engine - not brakes, and absolutely never use your parking brake when the rotors are hot).
I run the TSX front rotors/calipers with the dust shields removed.

Ahhh, Watkins Glenn is too far for me that weekend :( I'd love to get up there some time though!
 
#753 ·
If you guys are doing HPDE events, then yeah, go easy on the straights so you can save the brakes. But if you're time trialing and you need to keep pushing, then just hit the brakes sooner and not as hard, which will save them a little bit and keep them from hitting absurd temperatures.

It is important to cool off you brakes, but it's very rare that rotors warp. More often than not, it's the brake pad building up unevenly on the rotor. That's why you don't use your parking brake after a lapping session, as the pads can become stuck to the rotors.
 
#754 ·
I bring a couple blocks of wood to chock the wheels instead of parking brake, since paddock isn't always so flat.

My rotors are holding up OK (TSX swap, brake ducts) with the DTC-60's, but I did manage to melt the caliper piston boots and had to do a rebuild ($16/side from Majestic). Probably no way to prevent that since they are right on top of the pads.
 
#755 ·
My rotors are holding up OK (TSX swap, brake ducts) with the DTC-60's, but I did manage to melt the caliper piston boots and had to do a rebuild ($16/side from Majestic). Probably no way to prevent that since they are right on top of the pads.
I'm still OEM. I'm using titanium shims and they're not helping a whole lot with melting the piston boots, but they are helping a lot to prevent fluid fade.
 
#756 ·
I'm sure I'll figure out things pretty quickly with the SI I have tow day.

Blocks? I just leave it in gear the paddock is usually level anyways.

Shouldn't race pads scrub off the build up with a hard stop?


Sent from my Autoguide iPhone app
 
#757 ·
I only had an issue with the caliper boots when I had the dust shields on... Although I just rebuilt my calipers. I expect they will crack eventually, as the 'high temp' brake grease was nothing but a crisp when I pulled my pads. haha

The blocks aren't a bad idea, as most paddocks I've been to aren't flat, and I've heard a number of horror stories of very very expensive cars rolling down the paddock into other expensive cars...

Shouldn't race pads scrub off the build up with a hard stop?
Are you talking about a warpped rotor? Not a good way to do it... that would remove material unevenly, leading to a potentially unbalanced rotor - although, I think that's what they do when they turn a rotor. Best to practice good cooling procedures. Also, it would take a significant number of hard stops for a race pad to do that. You would also have uneven brake force while any warping is present. You can run on them (and I have), but I don't recommend it if you're really driving to the limits of your car.
 
#760 · (Edited)
If you guys are doing HPDE events, then yeah, go easy on the straights so you can save the brakes. But if you're time trialing and you need to keep pushing, then just hit the brakes sooner and not as hard, which will save them a little bit and keep them from hitting absurd temperatures.
I've heard a different story... You have a fixed amount of kinetic energy to dissipate to enter a given turn. Whether you brake softer and longer or shorter and faster, you will release the same amount of heat as you convert that kinetic energy into thermal energy (there is some pad chemistry as well, but this is pretty much true). That given, the difference in braking styles is the rate at which the heat is generated and how that heat permiates through the car.
The theory that I've been told is that a faster release of heat will keep the majority of the heat at the rotor surface. This creates a larger thermal gradient between the rotor and the surrounding air for which to dissipate heat into. Although, this would potentially cause the failed rubber parts... Really, if you want to lower braking temperatures - don't go as fast on the straights. Less kinetic energy to dissipate, regardless of your braking style.

Personally, I think you'd have to talk to a braking expert to really figure out which is better. A good pad should convert some of the friction into a chemical reaction in order to mitigate a portion of the heat generated... that may favor the longer braking style. But this is only a guess. I haven't noticed a difference in my track experience, other than shorter braking allows more time going fast - allowing you to catch those bloated 500hp cars :)

-Mike
 
#761 ·
Just got back from an event at barber msp... My Dad and I finally found out a stock brake setup that worked..

Front pads were Cobalt XR2 - worked well and still have plenty left after a two day event

ATE Superblue for fluid

Took the dust shields off.

Fabricated an air deflector that should help get some air into the brakes.

I never had the brakes fade enough that I was worried I couldn't engage the ABS. I felt them get warm after a 30 min session but the tires (Star specs) were more of an issue because they got greasy
 
#764 ·
It was about 90 ambient. Yes I didn't expect the tires to last that long. I'm running 225/45/17. The car also needs a little more camber but since it is my DD I don't want to go higher than -1.5 in the front.

Also, have any of you all experience the transmission getting kind of sludgy at high temps? It would still shift into gear but the action was not very god and sometimes the transmission was a little vague.
 
#763 ·
I have my first track day this Saturday, an SCCA PDX. I'm bleeding my brakes and clutch with ATE Typ 200, doing new pads, flushing coolant and stuff to get ready. I have a few questions.
1. After getting the pads on should I bleed the clutch before the brake system or does it not matter?
2. When changing the coolant, instructions say to start the engine, set the heater control to max heat and turn the engine off. Do you have to turn the fan on too, or is it just the heat dial? What does this do, open extra passages in the cooling system?
3. Lastly, its on the Sebring 1.7 mile short course. I haven't seen the layout yet, but do I need to take it easy in hard corners for oil pickup or will I be safe pushing it? Keep in mind I'm a novice and I'm only on street tires(Kumho 4X).
Thank you very much.
 
#766 · (Edited)
1. I don't think it matters.
2. Probably not, but I don't expect it will hurt.
3. You'll be fine. Just make sure the oil is topped up to the max mark when the car is on level ground and the engine is warm.
Take your time shifting, be smooth with a nice firm grip and action on the shifter. There's very little time to be gained by rushing shifts, but getting it wrong can lose a lot of time, or worse, damage the car.

Since it is your first time out, focus on getting the line correct (brake, apex, exit), using all of the track and being smooth. The speed will then come to you. Get the car turned in and then get back on the throttle early (start unwinding the steering as soon as you apex) and you'll soon be passing much faster cars :)
 
#770 ·
Yeah, I'm really excited to get some real experience with my racing line and feeling the car. I've got plenty of knowledge of how to be fast from Gran Turismo and research but I'm dying to really use it.:dancingcoolsmiley:

One more thing. As mentioned I'm using Kumho Ecsta 4X tires. Not racing tires by any means. Any advice on what cold air pressure to start at? What air pressure should I be looking to hit?
 
#771 ·
39-40psi hot on all 4 tires is a good starting point. Your goal is to minimize sidewall roll-over (more psi) while maintaining traction (generally less psi). On a new track, I usually start the day with 34psi all around and tweak from there. You'll build up an intuition for little adjustments to get closer from the beginning. When you come off the track, ask your instructor to let you check pressures as soon as you stop (want the hot numbers), and you can debrief after that.

The shifting is certainly much worse on the track. I have 73k very hard miles on my car, and my next upgrades will be aimed at fixing this... Engine mounts, tranny rebuild, clutch, and flywheel.

Also, I strongly recommend overfilling the oil. I use an entire 5qt jug. As you get faster, if you don't, you can feel the vtec come out at wot in high g turns from oil starvation.

Good luck!
Mike

Sent from my Desire HD using AutoGuide.Com Free App
 
#772 ·
Guys about to pull the trigger on a set of G-force kdw 2's tire rack gave them one less star on dry traction than star specs and they got the same wet rating.

I know they won't be the grippiest tire but want something that will last me a bit. Literally as long as they don't chunk I'm happy.


Sent from my Autoguide iPhone app
 
#774 ·
What size? Have you looked into the Continental Extreme Contact DW or the Sumitomo HTR Z II? Both have UTQGs at least 10+% higher than the KDWs so even If the KDWs have the most conservative ratings you should at least see similar milage. The Continentals are in a higher grip category and beats out both in the wet too. I would explore these two and the Hankook V 12 evo(evo will probably wear faster.). Especially if you will be running 225/45/17. It's such a crappy size that there's is a lot of variation from tire to tire and the KDW isn't exactly the front runner.
 
#777 ·
I think the thing I've most improved on after 3 weekends is becoming smoother transitioning off the brake and into the corner, and becoming smoother during transitions.

I try the best I can not to get the car upset, because when it does get upset you have significantly less grip.
 
#778 ·
Thanks for the info. Someone else recommended overfilling the oil as well. Would 3 or 4mm over the full line be good? I think that would be almost 5.5 quarts. I use 5 quarts for a regular change and it puts me right on the line.
Are you waiting at least 5 minutes before checking the oil level after filling it or running it? The stock 2.0L should only take 4.6L for a complete fill. Regardless, yes, it ends up being about 3-4mm above the full mark on the dipstick.

What tires are you using?

When using Hankook RS3, I start off with COLD 28psi front and 30psi rear, it gets to about 34-35 psi HOT.
I'm on a set of Super Sports, but that strategy has worked well with all my other track tires (Khumo V710's, Continental ContiSport 2's). 35psi hot gives me waaaay too much tire roll-over on the track. Again, make sure you take hot pressure readings immediately after you come off the track.

I have 72k miles on my car and I'm still on stock clutch & flywheel. All of the drive train has been fine.
Well, I learned to drive a stick on this car when I bought it new. Since then I've put 73k extremely hard miles on it, including over 30 track days. Additionally, I should have changed the tranny fluid more often with my tracking, but I didn't... lesson learned. I'm sure it's absolutely possible to have the drivetrain last well over 100k miles without any issues

Continental Extreme Contact DW
My second choice after the SS tires. I loved my first set of Conti's! I can vouch that the Conti's have better wet grip than the SS's. But the SS's are a fair bit better in the dry.


Sportcar motion has an baffled oil pan for $2xx
Can you post a link? Are you talking about for a K20Z3? I haven't seen anything that doesn't require milling or replacing the oil pump/balancer shafts.

-Mike
 
#781 ·
Are you waiting at least 5 minutes before checking the oil level after filling it or running it? The stock 2.0L should only take 4.6L for a complete fill. Regardless, yes, it ends up being about 3-4mm above the full mark on the dipstick.

-Mike
Yes, I always check it at the right time. I was including the filter in that 5 quarts too, not just the oil fill. And I don't know how other people are, but when I change oil I wait until the oil is barely dripping out anymore before plugging it back up and refilling. I'm sure there are people who don't like to wait that long but I let as much old oil come out as possible so it takes the whole 5 to fill up again.

On a similar note, I read just draining the radiator plug would only require about 1.1 to 1.2 gallons to refill so I only bought one gallon of coolant. But when refilling the overflow and then rad I went to top off the last bit with distilled water and almost another half gallon ended up going in. Am I OK with this? I estimate its about a 60/40 split with more water than coolant.
 
#779 ·
v12 will chunk after 3 or so hot laps, i did 2 track days and DD with them but the second track day i was sliding alot and was hot was around 35psi, i liked them in the rear while i ran federal 595 ss, i think they handle just a tad bit better than the v12 in the fronts, and havent chunked yet.
 
#782 ·
With a filter change and letting all the oil drip out I'm almost exactly at 4.7quarts for the refill. I find oil level a tricky thing though. Normally I end up taking a few readings over a few days before I'm happy it is correct. Oil temp, and how long the engine has been off both seem to make a difference. Normally I measure it hot shortly after the engine has been switched off.

I find garages tend overfill it. Last time I took it somewhere I gave them 5 quarts and they told me I needed to add another. I'm not sure how they worked that out. It was over the max mark when I checked it.

I am a little paranoid about overfilling since I heard that can cause frothing and excess pressure. Not sure about the pressure part...
 
#783 ·
Yeah, I'm the same way about checking it a few times to make sure everything's right. The only time I overfilled it is today at the track. Usually I don't because I heard it can cause more resistance to the crank's rotation, reducing gas mileage and maybe a little power. Other than that I don't know.
 
#784 ·
Today was my first lapping day and I wasn't able to get my Stoptech pads on in time. Long story short, I burned through my front pads with about 5 min left in the second session. Had to drive home on my backing plates. Woohoo! I am going to replace the rotors(prob Brembo blanks) and get the pads on, but is that all I need to do after what happened? Can anything else be damaged by that, like knocked out of balance or anything I need to look out for?
 
#785 · (Edited)
Nice! Haha, I've done that a couple times... Interestingly, the backing plates metal will give you roughly the same coefficient of friction as the pads themselves - they'll just eat away at your rotors. Two other things you should check though: Inspect your brake piston dust boot when you change the pads since it was pushed out farther than usual. I just discovered a heat-induced crack in mine from my last track event :( Time for a rebuild.
Second, when you're going through pad material that fast, you should keep an eye on the brake fluid resovior. Open it up every now and then to let additional air in... I've had a situation where I used up the pads so fast without doing this that the resovior seal was creating a vacuum, severely limiting my braking performance (very soft pedal feel).

Good luck!

I am a little paranoid about overfilling since I heard that can cause frothing and excess pressure. Not sure about the pressure part...
Can you post any more information on this?

-Mike
 
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