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A Serious Track Brakes Setup... That works!

33K views 82 replies 30 participants last post by  icewildabeast 
#1 ·
Hi all!

I started tracking my '07 Si Sedan 4 years ago and quickly realized that the stock brake setup was easily the weakest link for good track performance (okay, behind having a good set of tires). I am writing this thread to share my experiences as my skill progressed and I demanded more and more from the car. I wish I had a better guide as I got into the hobby... so here one is...

My first resource was a fantastic thread by Moose: Brake Options
  • This gave me a good idea of the parts available, but didn't give me a clear idea of what I needed to track the car
  • Best point to take away from the article: drilled and slotted rotors are all show... don't waste your money if you're going to be pushing your brakes. Personally, I've seen a ton of people with cracked rotors because of this!

Now, let me explain the problem with the stock brakes. On the street, they're fantastic! You will never have any issue engaging the ABS, and they will not heat up with any realistic street driving (even pushing). The problem reveals when you take your car out to a real track and start really pushing for LONG sessions (anything over than 10min). Further, at these extremes, almost all the weight, and consequently braking, will be on the front axle. The rear brakes are great to slap a set of Hawk HPS pads on and forget about for years. However the fronts...

The stock front brake setup will overheat every time. Here are the main contributors:
  1. The stock pads will literally disintegrate as temperatures moderately heat up. (I'll get to this later)
  2. Stock DOT3 brake fluid sucks, replace with a quality DOT4 fluid and flush before each track session (ATE Super Blue my favorite, Motul is a better alternative for more $$)
  3. Stock dust shields restrict air movement around the rotors. A dremel tool will make quick work of them (there's an article around somewhere about that)

And the final, and crucial restriction of the stock setup is the inadequate thermal mass of the stock rotors/calipers. The Acura TSX '06 generation has = diameter rotors, but are much thicker with 26% larger pads and calipers. This adds a ton of additional thermal mass to manage larger heat inputs. Again, this is only needed on the front axle.

To complete the story, I had quite an adventure in figuring out a high performance AND economical brake pad. I would say this is equally important as switching to the TSX rotors. This is my trail:

  1. Stock pads were great my first weekend, but it was clear that my last session was murdering them as I pushed harder.
  2. I switched to Hawk HP+ in fronts HPS rears for the next track weekend which lasted 2 weekends, barely.
  3. Cobalt Friction XR3 - Good pad feel, but ended up chipping under hard braking and ABS. Pads lasted 2 weekends
  4. Hawk Blue. GREAT feel, but brake dust eats paint when wet and killed a set of brake rotors in 3 track days.
  5. Carbotech XP10: Great feel, wear rate, and easy on the rotors. BUT the pad material is mounted to the backing plate using pins, which actually use up half of the usable pad depth! not worth the cost! Lasted 2 weekends
  6. Hawk HT-10's ... YES!!! 2 weekends down with ~75% pad remaining. No noticeable rotor wear. Great feel, never fades either.

To sum the pad journey up... If you're really pushing the car hard for extended sessions, get a pad that is rated for 1500-1600F! With the small thermal mass of the brake setup, combined with the extremely front loaded brake dist., you will need the added temperature. I think this is the main reason why the first sets of pads only lasted 2 weekends... These are great pad companies, but our car needs a more temperature tolerant compound than I chose. This is also why flushing your brake fluid with a quality DOT4 fluid is essential, otherwise you will put your foot to the floor... not good. The TSX swap is a great idea as well: cheap, easy, works great.

Anyway, I hope this helps people out! I know it's kinda late, but I wish I could have read this coming into the track hobby. I am proud to say that I am running my little civic in the experienced run groups with the Audi and BMWCCA's, and still passing corvette's, porsche's, and the occasional lotus... I even have a picture of me lapping an R8 :)
track shots from a year ago.

Let me know if you all have any questions!
-Mike
 
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#4 ·
I get the feeling the stock pads are weaker than the fluid, but I could easily be wrong. I changed both at the same time.

The rotors really aren't big enough for our Si's. Are they the same size as the rest of the Civics? Now with better pads and fluid, it is too easy to overheat the calipers. As I understand it, the seals in the calipers start to deteriorate above 400F.
 
#8 ·
Great info! I wish i had seen this thread before ordering my Carbotech XP10's.

I've ran 2 events with Axxis Ultimates front and back with ATE super blue fluid. Brakes felt great for the first two sessions and then the third I was really pushing it and the brake pedal hit the floor at the end of straight away.

Anyways, for the next event i'm going to install the XP10's and RBF600 fluid on a stock brake system, do i have to worry about heat damaging the calipers? I've heard some people saying even thought the pad can take 1600F heat, the brake piston seals will melt and they rebuild calipers oftens. Any advice?
 
#11 ·
I installed Hawk HP+ on my Si... I'm disappointed. The fronts were new before my track weekend... and after ~100 laps at Road Atlanta I have no pads and my stock rotors are completely destroyed (large grooves and chips of metal out). Each session was about 30 minutes. I think the rotors are weaker than the pads, and now I want bigger brakes. I can't being going off on 10a because the brake pads and rotors are shot.
 
#13 ·
Is there anything involved with doing the TSX brake swap? Or is it a simple R&R job. Is this also including changing the rear out as well? A friend of mine has an Si and we were looking at doing some brake work, I am glad to come across this before we purchased anything. I was leaning towards the Cobalt Friction units since I have never really enjoyed the entry level Hawk pads, but loved the Cobalts. Are those HT10s just for track days or do you use them on the street?
 
#14 ·
Wow, thanks for the great info, My friend just recently added a set of accord calipers to his EP3, works good. However I like my new DC5R brembo better. Well, my question is the touge course I run is 5.7mile uphill, and 5.8mile downhill. With yellowstuff front pads and ATE Super blue I will still have a little brake fade after 4mile/4min(usually I finish the course within 4 1/2 -5min) after on the downhill section. Do you think adding some thermal tape/wrap to the brake line would help since they are too close to the header?
 
#43 ·
I run the same setup, DC5R Brembos with Yellowstuff, they are a decent street/track pad, but if you plan to push them pass 4-5 minutes of abuse, you're better off going to the Bluestuff or something equivalent. Some ducting wouldn't hurt either. This is a photo of my brakes after 3-4 laps of abuse, definitely asking a lot of the pads. Have switched to bluestuff since, and have found them to handle easily double the amount of laps.

 
#19 ·
Here is the problem your facing. I don't think the pads are glazed. What is honestly happening, which is very typical of FWD cars on a downhill is that while your talking about the brakes fading it is more to do with your driving then the actual brakes. The front wheels have so much work to do that aside from accelerating and stoping they need to turn. What tires are you using? What tire pressures are you starting with, and more importantly what are you ending with? I would suggest getting an infrared temp gun and check the outer tire, middle tire, and inside of the tire and record all three numbers. Your tires are losing grip and when they lose grip every corner requires you to push the brakes further. The temp gun will also be able to tell you what the temp is of the rotor your using. Knowing where you are before and imediately after will help you figure out what adjustments you need to make. I just don't see how Brembo's aren't able to supply the braking performance you require. Even if they are stock equipment Brembos. Those pads aren't that bad. This might seem like a lot of work, but it will be worth it.

If your inner tire temp is hotter than your outer tire temp try reducing negative camber. If the middle of your tire is colder add 1 psi or just the opposite if its hotter.

Hopefully this will help. Knowing those temps will help dial in the tires, and suspension, and if your rotors are way too hot then maybe your exceeding the limits of the pads and they could be glazing.

This is typically how I go about adjusting cars for the suspension. I wish I had a long stretch of road to do my testing with like you do. Let us know how you make out.
 
#20 ·
Just came back from a 20min touge. Brake fade after the 4th mile during the downhill section as usually. Openned my hood, touched those brake lines. They aren't that hot except those right above the header/valve cover.
Here is the problem your facing. I don't think the pads are glazed. What is honestly happening, which is very typical of FWD cars on a downhill is that while your talking about the brakes fading it is more to do with your driving then the actual brakes. The front wheels have so much work to do that aside from accelerating and stoping they need to turn. What tires are you using? What tire pressures are you starting with, and more importantly what are you ending with? I would suggest getting an infrared temp gun and check the outer tire, middle tire, and inside of the tire and record all three numbers. Your tires are losing grip and when they lose grip every corner requires you to push the brakes further. The temp gun will also be able to tell you what the temp is of the rotor your using. Knowing where you are before and imediately after will help you figure out what adjustments you need to make. I just don't see how Brembo's aren't able to supply the braking performance you require. Even if they are stock equipment Brembos. Those pads aren't that bad. This might seem like a lot of work, but it will be worth it.

If your inner tire temp is hotter than your outer tire temp try reducing negative camber. If the middle of your tire is colder add 1 psi or just the opposite if its hotter.

Hopefully this will help. Knowing those temps will help dial in the tires, and suspension, and if your rotors are way too hot then maybe your exceeding the limits of the pads and they could be glazing.

This is typically how I go about adjusting cars for the suspension. I wish I had a long stretch of road to do my testing with like you do. Let us know how you make out.

+1 wow I thought I was actually reading honda tech and 8th gen for a second.

There's clearly other limiting factors at play here. Whats the ambient temp and what tires are you squeeling with?
 
#21 ·
+1 wow I thought I was actually reading honda tech and 8th gen for a second.

There's clearly other limiting factors at play here. Whats the ambient temp and what tires are you squeeling with?
Well thanks.... the funny thing is. I don't even own a Si. A friend does, and I told him I would help him out with setting up and building his car, along with helping him out with driving skills. Waiting for my corner scales to come so we can corner weight the car.
 
#22 ·
My tires are Firestone Firehawk Oval Indy 500 225/45/17. Tire pressure usually I run 40psi front and 28/26 rear. Ambient temperature is usually 55-60. Those tires you might not be familiar with as they are relatively new from Firestone. Bridgestone owns firestone btw. If I give Dunlop SS Z1 a B+, I would give these a B- where hankook Ventus Evo v12 is a C-. I really don't think it's my tires giving me hard time honestly. I can tell my pedal went soft noticeably after. It wasn't that I completely lost my brake, but it felt like I only had about half of the brake power. Well, I will try you tip and report back. Thanks.
 
#23 ·
I wasn't trying to say that your tires are exactly the problem. What I am trying to say is that your driving style is making your tires lose grip. When you lose grip, you tend to brake harder, when you brake harder you force the brake system to do more work. Like I said, I am not sure how your wearing out an OEM Brembo setup. I also personally think your downgraded your tire by going with that selection. You need to understand that you have two tires doing the majority of the work. When the tires begin to lose grip, other parts of the car are then being pushed harder to deliver the results you want. If you don't know your alignment that won't help as much. But dialing in the pressures should help fine tune your setup. Picking up a cheap temp gun will help you figure out what kinda temps your pads and rotors are seeing as well as how well your contact patch of the tires you do have are behaving.
 
#24 ·
And some hps or better to the rears too.

Im not familiar with those tires but I do run with slightly less pressure on the track.

If I finally change the lines and fluid next track session Im hoping to identify more issues with the pads/rotors. The front rotors are starting to show signs of wear... Looking to get brembo blanks when its time

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
 
#25 ·
Ok here my setup:
Alignment: -1.3 front, -1.6 rear 0 toe all around.
Front brake: DC5-r Brembo caliper w/ yellowstuff pads and brembo blank
Rear brake: stock Si caliper w/ HP + pads and Powerslot

I go with my crew. ALL of us overheat our front brake, just a matter of sooner or later. These includes accord/tsx caliper w/ HP + & HPS pads, Wilwood 4 piston 12.2" w/ HPS pads, EP3, RSX-s, Prelude stock calipers w/ HPS & HP +. By the time we finish the downhill section, we can all smell the rotors. Maybe we should be looking into brake duct. We might be going tonight, I will bring my temp gun with me to see
 
#27 ·
I also went with the TSX front swap and Brembo blanks, with DTC-60 front pads (HPS rear), ATE Super Blue and Goodridge SS brake lines for track days.

Speedbleeders are handy for fluid changes and when you swap pads - little check valves in the bleeder valve so you can do it yourself without somebody else pumping the brake pedal.

Also, there's another thread around here on my attempts at brake ducts but I haven't run them on the track yet.
 
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