Who Polices the Police?

[Capt Canuck]

Of course Homer Simpson would have you believe its the coast guard ;-)

Seriously though, can mods unilaterally do what they want on the boards or do they need to get confirmation from another mod before deleting posts and the like when its on a thread of the mods own making? When there's personal feelings involved -as there is in this situation- a mod's objectivity can and in this case did go out the door.

Yesterday I had a post edited/manipulated/censored without any note added to my post by the mod who changed it leading to a misrepresentation of my words and sentiment. Anyone who subsequently read that post would believe those were my words when they had been taken out of context. Its one thing to completely remove/delete a post, but to edit it, removing my criticism is wholly uncalled for. Is this common practice? How many other posts out there have been manipulated and changed from what the author originally wrote?

Can the users of this forum get some guarantee from the mods that if they wield their control panel powers to edit posts (as opposed to simply deleting them)that they will include a note saying as much. No one here should have their views misrepresented in such a manner.

For reference sake here are my original and mod edited posts. Was I being overly cynical or was I spot on? Either way, is it offensive or off topic enough to be deleted?

From the 'Test Drive Extravaganza' thread

Originally Posted by My original post

Assuming the Vette/S4 as the high end of what you're willing to spend on a car, here's a few more suggestions for your name dropping vanity project :-p
List of 6 cars followed

Originally Posted by mod edited post

Assuming the Vette/S4 as the high end of what you're willing to spend on a car, here's a few more suggestions:
List of 6 cars followed

[sf-si-02]

Originally Posted by Capt Canuck

Of course Homer Simpson would have you believe its the coast guard ;-)

Seriously though, can mods unilaterally do what they want on the boards or do they need to get confirmation from another mod before deleting posts and the like when its on a thread of the mods own making? When there's personal feelings involved -as there is in this situation- a mod's objectivity can and in this case did go out the door.

Yesterday I had a post edited/manipulated/censored without any note added to my post by the mod who changed it leading to a misrepresentation of my words and sentiment. Anyone who subsequently read that post would believe those were my words when they had been taken out of context. Its one thing to completely remove/delete a post, but to edit it, removing my criticism is wholly uncalled for. Is this common practice? How many other posts out there have been manipulated and changed from what the author originally wrote?

Can the users of this forum get some guarantee from the mods that if they wield their control panel powers to edit posts (as opposed to simply deleting them)that they will include a note saying as much. No one here should have their views misrepresented in such a manner.

For reference sake here are my original and mod edited posts. Was I being overly cynical or was I spot on? Either way, is it offensive or off topic enough to be deleted?

From the 'Test Drive Extravaganza' thread

why bite the hand that feeds you? The mods here are very reasonable people. Threads like this just serve to piss them off... let this serve as a warning. Don't keep doing this (i.e. stop watching/glamorizing the matrix)

[ethlar]

I'll answer this one:

We have the "command structure" of
Admins
Supermods
mods

As you would expect, Webby is in charge, he owns the site and we do what he asks us to do.

If a staff member feels that a certain topic/thread/post is too personal for them to handle or that they dont feel they can handle it appropriately, it gets handed off to another staff member.

We are usually all allowed to use our own judgment, but any actions we take can be reviewed and if the action we took was particularly drastic is discussed by the rest of the staff and overturned if necessary.

If you look in the site rules, it says that the staff has the ability to edit/delete/close/move threads as they see fit. Although it doesnt say we absolutely have to also let you know when we change something, we usually do try to. Sometimes people forget, or another reported post email comes in (we all get an email every time you report a post). Chances are your post was edited and they forgot to PM you or post in the thread that they changed your post.

as for why it was altered, it might have been viewed as a potential starting point for other users to start bickering. I cant be sure having never seen the whole thread.

i hope that clears some of this up

[mO 64 StAnG 06]

Originally Posted by sf-si-02

why bite the hand that feeds you? The mods here are very reasonable people. Threads like this just serve to piss them off... let this serve as a warning. Don't keep doing this (i.e. stop watching/glamorizing the matrix)

Why bite the hand that feeds you?

Why be submissive and deny your rights because you fear to question those of higher control over you?

Who cares if you "piss" the one's you critisize. Why deal with something you know is unjust and wrong and go about carrying on without standing up and saying something?

I totally do not agree one bit with your statement. You basically recommend being submissive to power and living under control. Your a good role model for governments ideal citizen.



But on the topic of this post, I agree with the OP. I can sort of agree with deleting posts with a potential to cause problems within the board. I've had it happen to me several times. But to edit and manipulate one's word is wrong...

[ethlar]

As long as this thread remains civil it will probably stay open

just be careful

[Tim]

It is each moderator's discretion to determine what is conflagratory. Ethan summed it up nicely. None of us (that I know of) are judges by profession, so we have to sometimes make quick judgment calls and act accordingly on what is intended to cause problems. Believe me when I tell you that there is almost constant discussion on how best to handle more serious issues.

If you have issue that you just can't get over with what one of us has edited, deleted, or whatever, you can always email or pm another staff member, report a post, or just let it go.

[webby]

"for your name dropping vanity project"

tell me what this comment added to the post? To me, reading that says you're somewhat attacking the other member it was directed towards.

Excessive pride in one's appearance or accomplishments; conceit
conceit: the trait of being unduly vain and conceited

An inflation of mind upon slight grounds; empty pride
inspired by an overweening conceit of one's personal
attainments or decorations; an excessive desire for notice
or approval; pride; ostentation; conceit.

name dropping - again, about the same as above. I would look at that single post as an attack to a degree.

Honestly, I haven't read the thread this is in, solely this post. It seems as you were almost poking at the member because he was looking for a "higher end car" - which you think is vain?

as far as mod powers/decisions - ethlar and tim have both explained how things are done. As it states in the site rules, we may edit a post to help cut out attacks, profanity, as we see fit to try and maintain somewhat of a civil site. The amount of material that mods sift on a daily basis is extensive. Some material is talked about for large periods in moderator chat areas of the site before anything is done. Some things are taken care of immediately if the mod seems it fit. Sometimes they may not have a chance to PM you that a certain comment was removed.

May I ask why that extra few words in your original post changed the way your post could be understood? It looks as though you listed the cars then. I can understand the post - without the extra "comment".

Feel free to pm myself for more info/questions.

[JchanFTW]

I'd like to know which mod edited the post, and what he/she has to say about the matter.

[Vince]

I can tell you that this site, the staff and most members, have either very thin skin, or plain lack a sarcasm detector. The moderation IS over the top...but you have to either live with it, or logout and don't come back because they don't care what you think of how they operate their site. And in the end it is their site, you use it for free, and thus must live within their heavy-handed censorship.
Your only venue to express your displeasure is too logout.

[mO 64 StAnG 06]

Maybe we can all donate $1 to buy the mods a new sarcasm detector....

[ethlar]

stay mature with this, otherwise this thread will get moderated too

[mO 64 StAnG 06]

lol come on.... You could have went with this and collected a nuce sum of money!

Hell even just a few donations can get you guys a nice time at a club.

[I Vtec, do you?]

I agree with the OP - It's not even what he wrote, but it's the fact that he wrote it in a mod's thread.

I'm an argumentative person and if I feel someone is doing something stupid, unmoral, etc etc, then I'll say something. It's very rare that I've ever been called out on it - in fact, a few times I've written in a drunk driver's thread about how I hope they crash their car and are unable to drive another car after that. That goes unchecked.. but when I write in a mod's thread about how I think that's BS to be driving cars you have ZERO intention of buying for your own gratification.. I get warned about doing it again. And then someone else does it and his post is edited.

@ Webby.. does it really matter if his post contributed to the thread? He even wrote ":-p" after it to show he was just poking fun.. Look at half the posts on these forums.. most of them are just people restating what has already been said 10x previously in the post, or just nothing at all. In fact, it's quite rare to come across a post that actually HELPS because a lot of people talk about things they know nothing about, and instead of just remaining quiet about the topic, they'd rather chime in with their own 'facts', however wrong they might be. A perfect example of this is when people were posting in the thread about how terrible it is for an automatic tranny on the civics to be 'shifted', when the owner's manual CLEARLY states you CAN do this. It's things like that (and poking fun) that are all over the boards.. yet one one of them is directed at a mod, it's edited.

[Tim]

I think we're making a mountain out of a mole hill here.

"Heavy-handed" as the moderation may be, it serves a purpose most times. If you have realistic suggestions on ways to improve the system, feel free to post them at any time. If it's just complaints about this thread or that thread, maybe send a pm to the mod in question, send it to another moderator online at the time, or if necessary, report the post.

[DTNguyen107]

Originally Posted by mO 64 StAnG 06

Maybe we can all donate $1 to buy the mods a new sarcasm detector....

Now you gotta admit, thats funny.

I'm not against the mods or anything since I'm new, but from a similar situation from another forum. Good or bad mods, it is a losing battle going up against them.

-----------------

How about leaving a footnote if the post is edited. Such as... "Edited by [Mod's Name] [Time & Date]"

[sf-si-02]

Originally Posted by mO 64 StAnG 06

Why bite the hand that feeds you?

Why be submissive and deny your rights because you fear to question those of higher control over you?

Who cares if you "piss" the one's you critisize. Why deal with something you know is unjust and wrong and go about carrying on without standing up and saying something?

I totally do not agree one bit with your statement. You basically recommend being submissive to power and living under control. Your a good role model for governments ideal citizen.

Perhaps you read the utne reader. I graduated magna cum laude from berkeley. I know a thing or two about being a denizen, but perhaps what you don't know, is that this is an internet forum not a democracy. Having been a moderator on ephatch once upon a time, I can tell you that moderators do what they see fit, and sometimes they do mess with non-mods for fun. But who cares, it's the small payment they get from doing siht work all day long taking care of some of the idiots that are honda owners.

If you want to start trouble, make your intentions crystal clear, and see if the title below your name stays the same for very long (above the avatar).

[mO 64 StAnG 06]

Originally Posted by sf-si-02

Perhaps you read the utne reader. I graduated magna cum laude from berkeley. I know a thing or two about being a denizen, but perhaps what you don't know, is that this is an internet forum not a democracy. Having been a moderator on ephatch once upon a time, I can tell you that moderators do what they see fit, and sometimes they do mess with non-mods for fun. But who cares, it's the small payment they get from doing siht work all day long taking care of some of the idiots that are honda owners.

Not familiar with UTNE Reader, but took a brief look into it and I think it will stay at that. I could care less where you graduated, and at my age that makes me somewhat of a "denizen" also.

What I was responding to in your post was the statement, " Why bite the hand that feed's you," or however it was stated.

And I believe that was bad advice. Like you mentioned, mods mess with members here unjustly... Correct? Im going by what you have said as proof that this happens. Ok, so what you want the OP to do is basically accept it and close his mouth and never type a word?

Why? Why not say something. Is speaking out a form of causing "trouble" to you? By the OP speaking out, this could have an effect on how the "system" here works and benefit all members and mods to make this forum more efficient and better. By speaking out, it causes the issue at hand to become more apparent and cause change for better or worse. Who knows until you question.

I know what I've just wrote makes this issue seem way more of a big deal than it really is. But what I was responding to was a deeper issue that was brought out by such a submissive statement.

Originally Posted by sf-si-02

If you want to start trouble, make your intentions crystal clear, and see if the title below your name stays the same for very long (above the avatar).

Again, I don't see how speaking out is starting "trouble".

Wow.. Banned or loosing my title on these forums. That's important... I could care less, I enjoy this forum, but it has nothing important to do with my life. So who cares?

[samx109]

Originally Posted by DTNguyen107

Now you gotta admit, thats funny.

I'm not against the mods or anything since I'm new, but from a similar situation from another forum. Good or bad mods, it is a losing battle going up against them.

-----------------

How about leaving a footnote if the post is edited. Such as... "Edited by [Mod's Name] [Time & Date]"

yea i agree on this one too. if post is edited, they should leave which mod edited the OP.. in that way i think there shouldn't be any problems.. and if you still have problems, i think mods and original poster should discuss in a chat room or through PMs.

okay i'm not trying to be on someones side.. i'm just trying to give it an idea. so yea.. i think it's just better to discuss before editing and fighting. yea..

[ethlar]

Originally Posted by samx109

yea i agree on this one too. if post is edited, they should leave which mod edited the OP.. in that way i think there shouldn't be any problems.. and if you still have problems, i think mods and original poster should discuss in a chat room or through PMs.

Like i said earlier, usually we try to, however all of us have full time jobs, school, and in some cases families to attend to as well. We are also active members here along with being moderators. Stuff comes up, bosses want our attention, the professor says close the laptops, so we dont always get a chance to write a pm saying hey we edited your post, this is why. We do make an effort to do so.


All of us chatting in a IRC or aim chatroom would be a good idea, however Webby has tried to have mods who can cover the site at almost all times (granted we all become workaholics and stay on here far to much). But not all of us are on at the same time. We have mod chat areas of the forum in which we double check with each other what actions are necessary and even simple stuff like is this PM appropriate or am i getting angry.

Moderating is not just moving editing and deleting posts, sometimes we have to mediate disputes and deal with members who are on moderation for causing problems. And while we do this, we are supposed to remain level headed and nice, regardless of what the member said.

I personally have had to PM a couple of members since becoming a mod for things like conducting sales outside the FS section because they didnt have enough posts and other things that are against the site rules.

My pm usually consists of "hey i just wanted to let you know that i removed your post because it was in violation of the site For Sale rules. (explanation of what exactly was wrong) and (link to FS section rules)"

their responses:
"go to hell"
someone actually compared me to hitler
"eat me"
(you get the idea where im going with this)

I think ive gotten slightly off track with this but, what i think im trying to say is that this goes both ways. If you get a post deleted/edited dont flip out on us, were people too and respond much better to a calm "i was wondering what happened and why" vs a "you #@#@%#$!(***@# you deleted me @#@# post...." Because one of those will get you an explanation and the other one will land you in moderation.

On a somewhat related note, im editing several posts in here that i deem to be unrelated and even possibly personal attacks on another member

[Tim]

All I can say is:

Submit, Comrade, or Die.

Oh, look at that. My little sarcasm reader is ringing off the hook.