[Full-Race Geoff]

ok guys -- its friday night and i promised that i wouldnt work on my car until i answered the posts in this thread. PLEASE DO NOT CALL FULL RACE ASKING ABOUT THE KITS AT THIS TIME. THE SALES OFFICE WILL NOT HAVE INFORMATION UNTIL WE ARE FINISHED WITH THE ENGINEERING.

this is gonna be a loooong post so get comfy!!

Originally Posted by soxfan143

Sweet. Geoff is here. Thanks god!!!!! Now a LOT of things will get cleared up. Glad to see you bud.

mike -- thanks so much for the kind words and for starting this thread. Good to see youve already answered many of the questions in this post!

Originally Posted by siksi1

So when can I give them my deposit?? I have a full race boosted eg that I have had boosted for almost 2 yrs now... No issues or problems! I think it would be very easy for them to offer us a setup for our cars, I dont think they should go with the twinscroll mani because it will limit us on the turbo options we choose to run. Not to mention that I'm sure the price with a twinscroll setup would be pretty hefty.

great to hear your EG's Full-Race turbokit is at 2 years and still going strong! singlescroll it is...

Originally Posted by gpomp

for a DD, i prefer to have quick spooling turbo with power in the low to mid range rather than a dyno champion with a laggy setup and peaky power. while i'm dreaming, i also want a closed dump. have it recirculate back into the downpipe just before the flange.

that is certainly within our design. quick spool, fast response and a broad powerband with huge area-under-the-curve is the #1 focus.

Originally Posted by ccking85

Do they have any ideas on the type of manifolds they are going to use or what can fit in our cars... Maybe a manifold that we can see the turbo like the RSXs have

Originally Posted by jasonskater

definitely a sidewinder style so the turbo gets put right by the side of the valve cover, if possible anyways.

Originally Posted by soxfan143

I so wish we could have the sidewinder but there is so many things that will be a hassle. There is just no room under that cowl. You have to have room for the down pipe, wastegate, dump tube oil lines AND the manifold itself. Then you have to have room for all the factory stuff like the main harness, brake lines and fuel lines and all the other stuff I mentioned in my previous post. I just think it will be way more of a hassle than it would be worth.

Originally Posted by soxfan143

Sidewinder is NOT happening. It can not be done properly and safely for a daily driven car. It would require cutting of the cowl and too much modifying for it to be reliable. Cutting the cowl wreaks havoc on drainage and aero under the hood. I can not say much more than that. You guys have to wait for Geoff to post up the info.

^^^^^^^ you got it. the only way to fit a sidemount manifold (or sidewinder as you guys call it) is to cut up the firewall and make clearance - which in my opinion is a race-car only mod and should not be done to any true streetcar. anyone looking to make 600+ whp in this platform will have to cut the firewall and can use our existing twinscroll T4 turbokit for the RSX, just like this car:



http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/force...cond-time.html

Originally Posted by soxfan143

I like the smaller turbos. I like the characteristics of them. Great throttle response, great midrange, and decent top end when properly plumbed and matched to the motor. I'm not too worried about dyno numbers or drag racing. I'm road race guy and I like that midrange power for being able to move around in traffic quickly if needed. Lol. And this is why I want a twin scroll setup. It basically makes a larger turbo act like a smaller turbo. Which is EXACTLY what I'm looking for.

Originally Posted by BlueSi4

I would love to be around the 400hp mark, anything higher than that might be too much for a DD.

Originally Posted by CanyonDriver

GT30R would be sickness on a full race kit

we've got you covered

Originally Posted by LiL Sang

As far as power goals, 400-550whp sounds pretty nice... Turbo size: GT47R rotated. lmao

300-550 is the powergoal we are working on, but if you really wanted a twinscroll GT47R, we can do that too:


(you would obviously need to cut the cowl)

Originally Posted by Ainokea_Si

manifold sidewinder twin scroll with something like a FP red

it wont be a sidemount and you can use the FP turbos or Garretts or anything really

Originally Posted by aLmk

Im assuming a manifold can be twin-scroll without being in the sidewinder style.

you got it

Originally Posted by realxlai

I think we can safely cut out the idea of the sidewinder for fitment and heat issues. If Full race deals with the fitment issues and makes it fit then I'm sure people will find ways to deal with the heat.

properly installing the kit requires that precautions be taken with respect to heat management. It is critical that anything and everything near the turbo get wrapped in insulation, and then cover that wrap with our gold heat-reflective foil (it will be included with the kits)

Originally Posted by whipsnap

this kit wont come with any tuning or fuel system components. they never have before. although they will help you in finding what you need.

traditionally, our turbokits are supplied without the fuel systems. The reason for this is that many of our customers already have a fuel system, or their tuner wants them to use a package, etc. If any of our customers would like us to supply the fuel system we are more than happy to do so!

Originally Posted by Cobber

What about two kits, one for low boost designed for a stock engine and a high boost kit for built engines. It would be a good idea, but I guess it might delay the producion process.

while our kit will be designed for maximum performance and reliability on the stock engines, it will be versatile enough to work with a built engine at elevated boost levels. There are a number of different T3 turbochargers to choose from, depending on your power and boost goals, as well as pricepoint.

Originally Posted by civicgotspeed

remember...its not the pounds of boost that kills your motor...its the amount of power youre making that kills your motor...15 pounds making 300whp wont pop before 6 pounds making 400whp.....

that is incorrect. excessive cylinder pressure is what damages motors. when the tune is off or the boost level is too high for poor quality fuel, cylinder pressure SPIKES and that huge ramp up in pressure causes the pistons to crack or rods to break. I would rather run a stock engine at 600whp on Q16 race gas then a built engine on 91 octane fuel to that same power level.

Originally Posted by Ronmaster901

I would say the 6262s is an excellent choice. 1. It has been tried and proven to make the power. 2. 300 whp at 4.4 lbs of boost and 420 whp at 11.

some people have had good results with the precision turbos, we dont normally recommend them, but if thats a turbo you want to run you can do it with our kit!!.

Originally Posted by Supa Ninja

FMIC- any of the name brand ones with these approx dimensions 7.8" X 22" X 3.5" and 2.5" piping that fits good...WHP goal of 500 on 8psi of boost.

our brand new redesigned K series FMIC utilizes a very efficient and clever endtank design to improve cooling at elevated boost levels, and most importantly spool earlier with faster response.



unfortunately your whp goal of 500 at 8psi is unrealistic.

Originally Posted by soxfan143

When you increase the boost level in an already high compression motor you are increasing the compression in the cylinders and you are increasing the heat generated at combustion. This will raise your exhaust gas temperature to an unbelievably unsafe level. You can make well over 500whp on this motor in stock trim as long as you keep your boost levels below 12-14psi, keep your AFRs safe and keep your EGTs down.

^^^^^^^ you got it! there is a simple rule of thermodynamics which explains just this -- PV=mRT.

Originally Posted by atruhondagrl

Son of a ^&*%$!!! I wanted a Full Race turbo set up like 2 years ago and back then it was , "sorry... no can do." I'm 8 months into my 8th car and they finally develop one!!!

sorry the fuel mgt was simply not an option, and until you can properly fuel a newly released engine/chassis we will not develop a kit for it. Now that Hondata and Cobb have something that will work with the FG2, the floodgates are open.

Originally Posted by bossman

IF I were to go the FI route I'd like to see a kit using an anti-lag turbo...bang bang on high is what it's about.

all of our turbokits are antilag compatible -- no problems at all, and no reliability issues!

Originally Posted by Gimenez

Not going to happen. Anti-lag is very unreliable and most turbos these companies use are weak for anti-lag... Garrets die quick with anti-lag, Precision are the same crap as Garret just different brand and slightly different designs so they will die too. The only turbos proven to have been good with anti-lag systems are some IHI Turbos which are for rallying... and its because rally cars use anti-lag systems a lot. Don't get me wrong you can install antilag in any turbo but expect it to fail

i disagree emphatically with the above post

Originally Posted by 07CivicMD

but I can take a precision "Billet" journal bearing and produce almost the same spool.. but gain more whp.. Just a though for everyone out there thinking that the "GT" is the only series that can produce power.. don't get me wrong.. very nice turbos.. but very nice price tags to go along with those series..

our kits arent only compatible with GT turbos, you can use any turbo that fits like the precisions!

Originally Posted by soxfan143

Definitely DON"T go SC. Wait a little bit for things to develop. You will NOT regret it.

^^^^ agreed. visit the RSX forum if you are on the fence, plenty of guys over there started with superchargers on their K20s then went turbo.

Originally Posted by GalaxyGreySi

I don't see the point in all of this. Full Race will likely be successful by adapting their RSX manifolds and I/C piping to fit the FG2, and then sell a kit that is essentially the same, with a FlashPro map to go along with it. What the hell is this thread even for???

that is incorrect, our current RSX fits will not fit the FG2 chassis without heavy modifiaction to the cowl/firewall. This is not recommended unless it is a race-only vehicle.

Originally Posted by FBP FG2

Mike. This is crazy news. I've been waiting for a full race kit for 2 and a half years now. Hopefully my wait will be worth it. Crazy.... Can't wait. Do you have any info on a release date yet?

Thanks for the compliments, working hard to have the kit ready late august, 1 month ahead of schedule hopefully!!

Originally Posted by soxfan143

A manifold can absolutely cause boost creep. Especially a poorly designed one or someone trying to make a knock-off and not doing it properly. There are multiple ways a manifold can cause creep. Poor runner design, poor collector design and poor wastegate location. Though a poor wastegate is the most common reasons of creep a manifold is right up there.

ill post up a CFD (computational fluid dynamics) generated image of simulated boost creep on a poorly designed manifold (ie our k series knockoff) if you'd like to see?

Originally Posted by cellulis44

on a turbocharged vehicle, low and mid range grunt will be determined by the a/r of the hot side. doesnt matter its a 2.0 german motor or a 2.0 honda.... the secret is find the perfect turbine thats doesnt just spool to full boost close to redline. the optimal setup is a tubular manifold and a medium-small sized turbine housing on a big wheel (62-68mm) A small turnine housing 76 would really shine if given just enough back pressure to spool at low rpm's (2500-3000)

youre close, but not totally right. IMHO The hotside should NEVER be sized to change the powerband of the car - rather the turbo should be changed. Every turbo has a turbine housing that is in the "Sweet spot" of that turbo's operating efficiency and range. If you use a smaller housing you will sacrifice top end performance too much, and if you use a bigger housing you will sacrifice low end performance too much.

Originally Posted by Ronmaster901

If you guys want mid range power...get a VW or Audi....These machines we have here are high reving high end hp motors. Lets work with what we got.

i disagree - solid midrange power is critical to having a well rounded turbocharged car that is responsive, not laggy and can smoke anything else it rolls up to on the street. Keep in mind these are FWD cars and if you take a top end powerband big turbo FWD car on the street (not the track) you will spin and spin and spin, unable to get out of your own way... and then your k series trans will break... this isnt up for debate

Originally Posted by Ronmaster901

I just cant stand it when these t25 and t28s choke up top...its so aggrivating, yeah, the midrange power is nice, but its nothing (imo) to when a larger turbo (meaning a larger Area/Radius turbine) lays you back in that seat and keeps laying you back harder and harder the higher you rev. Backpressure FTL. Get those exhaust gases to hit that turbine wheel tangentially all you want....i want real power. lol jk on real power...just my opinion.

the object of efficient turbocharging is high backpressure at low RPM and low backpressure at high rpm. The reason those t25/t28 turbos dont work is they simply can not flow enough to keep up with the ultra-efficient K series engines... combined with an ultra restrictive log manifold, the engine just cant exhale efficiently, so it saps up power.

Originally Posted by soxfan143

The reason the T28's are choking so badly on this motor is because of the manifolds they are bolted to. If you put a GT2871RS on this motor with a Full-Race quality tubular manifold DESIGNED for that turbo and motor it would spool up at 3K and pull like a freight train to redline. The other main problem is the lack of efficiency in the turbine sizing and design when applied to this motor. The GReddy turbo was not designed for a motor that flows as efficiently as the K motor. It was originally designed for the SR20 and Miata motor(I think). The turbine is too small and there are too many blades on the turbine wheel which choke the crap out of the motor at high rpm. And I'm guessing that the same thing is happening with the TSI turbo. Now, combine that restrictive turbine design with a log style manifold and a wastegate that is just a little too small as well and you have problems making serious top end power. Your low end and midrange will be silly but not up top.

Now about backpressure. You definitely need some with a turbo system for spool up. I'm not 100% on this subject because It's rather confusing to me. I'm still trying to learn about this aspect of turbochargers. I know that the more heat you can keep contained within the manifold and exhaust, the quicker it will spool and the longer it will stay spooled up. So wrapping your manifold and turbine is a great idea. Now when Geoff chimes in he can straighten all this out a lot better than I can.

Originally Posted by soxfan143

wrapping your manifold and turbine is a great idea.

that is correct, particularly when the manifold/turbo/downpipe are so close to the firewall and associated hoses/lines. Using an HPC coating + heat wrap + insulation on all hoses/lines is a GREAT precautionary measure and i can not stress enough how important it is to do this!!

Originally Posted by Ronmaster901

With smaller turbines, the exhaust gas velocities are higher and hit the wheel more tangentially. The exhaust gases are the line at which they hit the wheel .. This provides quicker spooling of the turbo and more back pressure at higher rpms. With larger A/R turbines, the exhaust gas velocities or lower and hit the wheel more radially. I dont have a picture for this, but imagine that the exhaust gases enter the wheel going from the circumference inward along the radius. This delays spooling but creates less back pressure at higher rpms allowing it to breath.

that is not correct, the size of the turbo has no impact on whether the exhaust gas reaches the wheel "tangentially" or "on center" that is purely a function of manifold and turbine housing design. FWIW we ONLY use tangential turbine housings, everything else is a complete waste of time, especially on a high flowing VTEC honda cyl head.

Originally Posted by taffy07si

Trust me, you will want more power once you feel it.

i hear you on that... my tock bottom end daily driver makes 567whp on 91 octane and im used to it (gonna switch to e85 and turn the boost up more)

Originally Posted by atlprofessor

Full Race is the jam!

thanks!